Why DAL's proposed ratio is inequitable
#291
On Reserve
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 767ER Captain
Posts: 14
My Humble Opinion...
A 52 year old NWA 747-400 Captain referencing the youth barrier and age distortion problem at Delta Air Lines...now that's funny, I don't care who you are. I hope CS is available to testify at the arbitration hearings. We shouldn't need anyone else to support the DAL position.
1000 NWA pilots to retire early...really. I've never met a pilot yet willing to leave a nickel on the table, especially with 500 new airplanes, 5 new bases, and hundreds of new destinations from which to choose. I think a few might just hang around for a while to see what develops... and for each 1 that retires, a NWA pilot still moves up 1 number, just as before the merger.
DOH. I move from 11% to 21% while my NWA counterpart moves from 36% to 21%. No no no no...
Fences??? How long would you like to be trapped on those DisappearingC9s? You might get a little restless as you look south thru the chain link.
DALPA/Delta put NWA pilots on a 'B' scale/sold you out. I don't think so. We don't negotiate for you. You don't work here, yet. Don't forget, you're holding out for DOH, which didn't cost you a penny until LOA 19 reared it's ugly head. What are your negotiators doing? Time is money now.
If I could get up the morning after the merger and buckle into the same seat as the day before, for more money at the same relative seniority I'd be relieved. In fact that's what I plan on doing.
Your ALPA brother, not your whipping boy...
1000 NWA pilots to retire early...really. I've never met a pilot yet willing to leave a nickel on the table, especially with 500 new airplanes, 5 new bases, and hundreds of new destinations from which to choose. I think a few might just hang around for a while to see what develops... and for each 1 that retires, a NWA pilot still moves up 1 number, just as before the merger.
DOH. I move from 11% to 21% while my NWA counterpart moves from 36% to 21%. No no no no...
Fences??? How long would you like to be trapped on those DisappearingC9s? You might get a little restless as you look south thru the chain link.
DALPA/Delta put NWA pilots on a 'B' scale/sold you out. I don't think so. We don't negotiate for you. You don't work here, yet. Don't forget, you're holding out for DOH, which didn't cost you a penny until LOA 19 reared it's ugly head. What are your negotiators doing? Time is money now.
If I could get up the morning after the merger and buckle into the same seat as the day before, for more money at the same relative seniority I'd be relieved. In fact that's what I plan on doing.
Your ALPA brother, not your whipping boy...
#292
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1000 NWA pilots to retire early...really. I've never met a pilot yet willing to leave a nickel on the table, especially with 500 new airplanes, 5 new bases, and hundreds of new destinations from which to choose. I think a few might just hang around for a while to see what develops... and for each 1 that retires, a NWA pilot still moves up 1 number, just as before the merger.
Hey widebody
I guess you never flew with the Delta guys who bailed out early--maybe around 1500 guys or so????? Why didn't they stick around if Delta is such a great deal for a few nickles.
And as for moveing up a number when a NWA guy retires yeap I do but right now i move up without 1500 JUNIOR DOH DELTA GUYS IN front of me. SO they should get a shot at NWA retirement seats before me. Take your Delta crap and put it where the sun don't shine.
Keenster
1000 NWA pilots to retire early...really. I've never met a pilot yet willing to leave a nickel on the table, especially with 500 new airplanes, 5 new bases, and hundreds of new destinations from which to choose. I think a few might just hang around for a while to see what develops... and for each 1 that retires, a NWA pilot still moves up 1 number, just as before the merger.
Hey widebody
I guess you never flew with the Delta guys who bailed out early--maybe around 1500 guys or so????? Why didn't they stick around if Delta is such a great deal for a few nickles.
And as for moveing up a number when a NWA guy retires yeap I do but right now i move up without 1500 JUNIOR DOH DELTA GUYS IN front of me. SO they should get a shot at NWA retirement seats before me. Take your Delta crap and put it where the sun don't shine.
Keenster
Last edited by keenster; 05-02-2008 at 07:30 PM.
#293
On Reserve
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 767ER Captain
Posts: 14
Keester, be nice...
Well, the mass exodus occurred as we approached bankruptcy at DAL. They took the 50% lump sum expecting the retirement would be lost in bankruptcy. Probably a good move for some. The DAL pilot retirement plan was liquidated. DAL pilots age 53 will recover a good portion of their monies. The rest will get PBGC payouts. NWA's plan is frozen, correct? I assume that means at some date you will recieve a portion of it. Since both of these events occurred prior to this alleged merger, I don't consider that I'm entitled to a portion of your frozen pension. Likewise I don't see why you should expect seniority list compensation for our past retirements. Try to give a 'big boy' respone this time, and maybe some useful information can be gained by both of us, k?
#294
Super Moderator
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: DAL 330
Posts: 6,868
Spaceman,
One post where someone mentions a strike and you mouth off with this "stereotypical NWA attitude" comment!??! And then you say "so much for working together??" We've had plenty of intemperate posts from DAL folks (a lot of them from you) and I don't recall anyone from NWA talking about typical Delta attitudes. Step down off the ledge dude.
Carl
One post where someone mentions a strike and you mouth off with this "stereotypical NWA attitude" comment!??! And then you say "so much for working together??" We've had plenty of intemperate posts from DAL folks (a lot of them from you) and I don't recall anyone from NWA talking about typical Delta attitudes. Step down off the ledge dude.
Carl
Excellent use of the word intemperate, writing is definitely a lost art on these forums. Hopefully after the merger DAL and NW guys can get together and really get intemperate, and oh yeah, your buying.
Scoop
#295
Well, the mass exodus occurred as we approached bankruptcy at DAL. They took the 50% lump sum expecting the retirement would be lost in bankruptcy. Probably a good move for some. The DAL pilot retirement plan was liquidated. DAL pilots age 53 will recover a good portion of their monies. The rest will get PBGC payouts. NWA's plan is frozen, correct? I assume that means at some date you will recieve a portion of it. Since both of these events occurred prior to this alleged merger, I don't consider that I'm entitled to a portion of your frozen pension. Likewise I don't see why you should expect seniority list compensation for our past retirements. Try to give a 'big boy' respone this time, and maybe some useful information can be gained by both of us, k?
Relative senioty puts 1500 junior DOH Delta guys in front of me taking any chance of getting my upward movement from NWA retirements away. I was hired Aug of 1985 and offered a class in sep of 85 at Delta. SO, I spend my last 8 years sitting behind 1500 guys junior to me bidding junior lines and working more days and have a lower quality of life etc. You have had a great seniority advance and now it seem that you want another one. I do not want to take anyones seat or bump any Delta pilot out of his seat. But, I do not want Delta guys junior to me DOH to take my upward movement away. I am just trying to keep WHAT I HAD COMING BEFORE THIS MERGER WHAT IS WRONG WITH THAT. PAY MAY COME AND GO RETIREMENT MAY COME AND GO THE ONLY THING THAT IS FOREVER IS YOUR SENIORITY.
Can you guarantee me that I will never loose my Frozen retirement that is half of what it was supposed to be. What happenes if that goes away. Can you guarantee me that Delta will not go Bankrupt again. What happens when they need paycuts to stay afloat next time. So I am supposed to take a senority hit based on things that may not be there in the future-- don't think so because we have already lost and probably will loose again when it comes to contractual negeotiated items. Everyone caves when it comes to loosing your job and lively hood.
keenster
Last edited by keenster; 05-02-2008 at 08:23 PM.
#296
Stampede for the exit
Plenty of good reasons: they could take a 50% lump sum, bankruptcy and big wage cuts were looming, they had to go at 60 anyway, and the pension plan was (correctly) rumored to be severely underfunded, so it was possible that they might get only the PBGC minimum if they waited.
#297
Relative senioty puts 1500 junior DOH Delta guys in front of me taking any chance of getting my upward movement from NWA retirements away. I was hired Aug of 1985 and offered a class in sep of 85 at Delta. SO, I spend my last 8 years sitting behind 1500 guys junior to me bidding junior lines and working more days and have a lower quality of life etc. You have had a great seniority advance and now it seem that you want another one. I do not want to take anyones seat or bump any Delta pilot out of his seat. But, I do not want Delta guys junior to me DOH to take my upward movement away. I am just trying to keep WHAT I HAD COMING BEFORE THIS MERGER WHAT IS WRONG WITH THAT. PAY MAY COME AND GO RETIREMENT MAY COME AND GO THE ONLY THING THAT IS FOREVER IS YOUR SENIORITY.
If you're MSP, DTW or ANC based and plan on staying there, then my money says you'll never lay eyes on those 1500 guys (maybe a tiny fraction). In fact, once the DAL manning formula is applied (2 CA & 2FO on the long haul stuff) you'll get an immediate QOL bump to the positive.
#299
Relative senioty puts 1500 junior DOH Delta guys in front of me taking any chance of getting my upward movement from NWA retirements away. I was hired Aug of 1985 and offered a class in sep of 85 at Delta. SO, I spend my last 8 years sitting behind 1500 guys junior to me bidding junior lines and working more days and have a lower quality of life etc. You have had a great seniority advance and now it seem that you want another one. I do not want to take anyones seat or bump any Delta pilot out of his seat. But, I do not want Delta guys junior to me DOH to take my upward movement away. I am just trying to keep WHAT I HAD COMING BEFORE THIS MERGER WHAT IS WRONG WITH THAT. PAY MAY COME AND GO RETIREMENT MAY COME AND GO THE ONLY THING THAT IS FOREVER IS YOUR SENIORITY.
Can you guarantee me that I will never loose my Frozen retirement that is half of what it was supposed to be. What happenes if that goes away. Can you guarantee me that Delta will not go Bankrupt again. What happens when they need paycuts to stay afloat next time. So I am supposed to take a senority hit based on things that may not be there in the future-- don't think so because we have already lost and probably will loose again when it comes to contractual negeotiated items. Everyone caves when it comes to loosing your job and lively hood.
keenster
Can you guarantee me that I will never loose my Frozen retirement that is half of what it was supposed to be. What happenes if that goes away. Can you guarantee me that Delta will not go Bankrupt again. What happens when they need paycuts to stay afloat next time. So I am supposed to take a senority hit based on things that may not be there in the future-- don't think so because we have already lost and probably will loose again when it comes to contractual negeotiated items. Everyone caves when it comes to loosing your job and lively hood.
keenster
I will guarantee you that you will lose a spelling competition with your loose command of proper spelling.
#300
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,273
Keenster, I am curious if you would mind posting the short version of what NWA felt was the fair and equitable way to merger Republic in your last merger. It would make for interesting reading. At a minimum it should show they the only fair method for each pilot is the method that puts him the highest up the seniority list. I will give you a hint. NWA was wildely oppposed to DOH and back then DOH was a component of ALPA merger policy which it is not today.