Deal made on hours of training for co-pilots

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Quote: Sadly, that is so true.
Have you seen the unrest taking place in those countries where high union wages dominate? The Western European countries have highly paid pilots and their economies are failing or stalled at best. Just look at England. BA is set for a three day strike and Greece is falling apart. Higher wages in the foreign countries may not be all they're cracked up to be.
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Quote: Have you seen the unrest taking place in those countries where high union wages dominate? The Western European countries have highly paid pilots and their economies are failing or stalled at best. Just look at England. BA is set for a three day strike and Greece is falling apart. Higher wages in the foreign countries may not be all they're cracked up to be.
I hear where you are coming from but I'm not convinced the economic meltdown in these places is due to the fact that they are paying their pilots what they should. The most likely cause I would say is greed. Americans aren't the only ones that are greedy. They learned it from watching us.
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Quote: Couldn't disagree more!
The Colgan crash families are operating under the false premise that politicians can fix this. (Whenever I've had a Mx problem, I always ask a gate agent to fix it)

Let's see if I got this right?
Renslow and Shaw both met every single requirement that's been proposed thusfar, (ATP's, 800-1,500 hours, multi-crew training, airline approved training for icing conditions, etc.) Neither one was a zero-to-hero at Colgan.

What would prevent this from happening again? Shut down places like Gulfstream and go up the rectum of Colgan's training department with a microscope, and put shady operators and the RAA on notice.

The families mentioned laud this STUPID proposal, and in turn enable the very pay-to-play places like Gulfstream that produced a pilot like Renslow. I'm I the only one who thinks the ATP and 800hour/icing compromise have nothing to do with this accident? I'm insulted that obviously not a single pilot is being consulted on this p.o.s. legislation?
The problem with the know-it-all, ill-informed general public is they see all the rules that surround 121 flying being created by those that should be "experts' in the field keeping them safe. So they trust that since the FAA signed off on 250 hour wonders flying right seat, its just fine (or in most cases ignorance is bliss). But when fully informed of what having said 250 hour wonder entails after a catastrophic accident, then they and the equally ignorant politicians look at it as "well the experts obviously didn't do things right and so now we will step in to rectify the situation". You are now seeing the direct result of the knee-jerk political/public reaction to finding out the "experts" made the rules to suit pocket books, not public safety, and those results are equally as silly.
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Hi!

TPROP4ever:
What are you advocating for here???...
Quote:
I tried to caution people that trusting any government entity to regulate entry into a field they know little about could bite us all in the butt.
Do you want Congress to disband the FAA, or just tell the FAA that they can't regulate how pilots enter into commercial aviation?

Without a government entity to regulate air safety, you think that each airline's management (in conjunction with their unions, if they have any) should regulate their own operation???

cliff
NBO
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Quote: And many times what will a single sim tell you about a pilot?
How about a sim or a flight in an airplane that I've never been in before?
Will that be a fair assesment of my piloting skills?
How about if I told you that I would give you your DREAM job if you could pass a basic instrument qualification in MY simulator? I'm sure that I could make it more than you can handle 99% of the time.
No....training is actually a much better gauge of a pilot's skill than a one shot simulator session.

USMCFLYR
Agreed, good training is the best case scenario! And I also agree that one sim session can't tell you much about how good of a pilot someone is, although it could certainly tell you how bad they are. I'm definitely not saying that the sim ride should be "more than you can handle", that would be worthless. I don't think a few approaches and some partial panel is "more than you can handle". At least it shouldn't be if you are trying to be an airline pilot. All I'm saying is it seems that the sim ride is so easy the way it is for some interviews that it is nearly pointless.
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Quote: Agreed, good training is the best case scenario! And I also agree that one sim session can't tell you much about how good of a pilot someone is, although it could certainly tell you how bad they are. I'm definitely not saying that the sim ride should be "more than you can handle", that would be worthless. I don't think a few approaches and some partial panel is "more than you can handle". At least it shouldn't be if you are trying to be an airline pilot. All I'm saying is it seems that the sim ride is so easy the way it is for some interviews that it is nearly pointless.
imbroke -

I don't know what these airline interview sim sessions are like - so it is very hard (impossible really) to say that they are an appropriate test (evaluation) of one's skill level. You pros will have to judge that.

I'll focus on my feelings for any future sim eval that I might have to endure. I'm pretty confident in my instrument skills - in my airplane. I'm not looking forward to having to fly an airplane that I am unfamiliar with, shooting approaches that I am either unfamiliar with, or at least haven't shot in many, many years, and have a job that I would really like to have hanging in the balance.
The good side of the equation is that I am pretty sure that through my career I have proved that I am trainable. I'm sure I have my work cut for me - but I keep telling myself that if those 300 hr wonders can do it - THEN SO CAN I! (and I mean make it through any training program - not just a 121 airline training program)

USMCFLYR
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Quote: Have you seen the unrest taking place in those countries where high union wages dominate? The Western European countries have highly paid pilots and their economies are failing or stalled at best. Just look at England. BA is set for a three day strike and Greece is falling apart. Higher wages in the foreign countries may not be all they're cracked up to be.
These Western European countries have governments that are borderline socialistic also. The high government wages were the downfall of Greece, not high paid pilots. We in America are heading down the same path of Greece and our pilots are paid peanuts.
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Quote: So they trust that since the FAA signed off on 250 hour wonders flying right seat, its just fine (or in most cases ignorance is bliss). But when fully informed of what having said 250 hour wonder entails after a catastrophic accident, then they and the equally ignorant politicians look at it as "well the experts obviously didn't do things right and so now we will step in to rectify the situation". .
What catastrophic accident happened with a 250hr person at the controls?
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Quote: What catastrophic accident happened with a 250hr person at the controls?
That would be Colgan 3407 just outside of Buffalo. I am sure this is where you will point out the Captain had over 3000 hours total, but that doesn't change one simple fact about his experience. He was hired at his first airline job as a 250 hour pilot.
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Quote: That would be Colgan 3407 just outside of Buffalo. I am sure this is where you will point out the Captain had over 3000 hours total, but that doesn't change one simple fact about his experience. He was hired at his first airline job as a 250 hour pilot.
Exactly right! And if you ever have an accident/incident, your total hours acquired at your first job (instructor/cargo/banner towing/ ferry pilot, etc) should be the determining causing factor!!
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