Carl;
Any time I have ever talked to your DTW Sec Tres he always seems to get scope. I do not know why you think he would be willing to sell anything. I believe your FO rep is of the same mind set.
Do not forget that the sec/tres is a non voting position!

That's not mentality, it's a fact. There will be gains in most areas of our contract but all gains will impact the others. No matter how large the pie it is still a pie !

I disagree. As Carl pointed out earlier, from the beginning of the profession the contracts got bigger and better for pilots up till 9/11. So to use your pie analogy, the pie kept getting bigger and one gain did not impact another. Now abused dogs just assume one gain impacts another but it's by no means fact.


Don't be a trained dog or management will love you.

If I disagree I'm a trained dog ? Then you are a moron because you don't see what is obvious and you revert to name calling. I want huge gains in all areas but in the end it is still a pie that has to be divided.

Carl was wrong.

What is the status of the DPA push ? Does it stand any chance ?

Okay, let's put it in the simplest terms for ease of argument. Let's pilots at XYZ airline had a contract where average pay was $50,000 a year and they each had 10 vacation days which averaged $1,000 per day in cost. Let's assume that those were the only two things in their contract, so the total contract cost is $60,000 per year per pilot. So now, they decide to go to an arbitrator to decide how much more they are going to get from the company and he decides on $12,000 per pilot increase in total compensation.

Okay, I know this is a totally made up, artificial situation but in order to illustrate my points I had to have everything as a known quantity.

So the union has $12,000 per pilot. They can give the pilots 2 more vacation days and a $10,000 per year raise, or they can give 12 more vacation days and no raise, or they can give $12,000 per year in pay raises. What they can't do is give 12 more vacation days AND a $12,000 per year raise.

In our situation we know the inputs to the contract, but we don't know the output, or how much we are going to get. What we do know is some general range of numbers based on the economics and negotiating environment. The unions job is to press the upper limit of all the variables to get the best deal possible. But at some point there is a limit. Once you accept that there is a limit then decisions have to be made because you have 12,000 pilots with 12,000 priorities.

If you reject the concept that there is a limit then I demand $50,000 per hour. If it is unlimited then why not shoot high? You will respond that I am being ridiculous, and I will agree, but you can only say I am ridiculous if you accept that there is some limit.

Delta will put about $35 B on the top line this year, our contact is about $2.25 (guess only) which makes us about 6.5% of gross. At least you would have to agree that we could never get more than $35 B per year and when you start to make some basic assumptions about paying for aircraft, fuel, gate space, etc. that $35 B gets whittled down pretty quick. At some point there is a range from current contract, to current contract + X. The union will make X as large as possible but there is a limit.

We have a perfect example of what happens when a union ignores limits. The APA made up a contract number based on some invented formula, with no basis in the real world. Their company has no ability to pay X, or at least the National Mediation Board is convinced they don't. Therefore, the APA is parked in limbo, and have come to ALPA for help and advice to get out of limbo. If you don't accept limits, then the realities of the world will come crashing down upon you.

Maybe you are a pay guy who wants all your increase in pay, Bucking Bar wants all his increase in scope, hockeypilot wants to have commutable reserve, maybe Carl wants better retirement. Once you have a limit, and once you have these competing priorities, then you have to make decisions. You cannot have it all.

Apparently.. according to ACL.. PG.. alfa... a few others..... the 46% paycut has no impact that warrants any recompense. It's like.. Oh well... they beat us there.. so now we have to give something to get that back... THAT's the mentality that I am offended by. The thing that scares me to death is that those three probably are wired in to the DALPA HQ...

It never did have a chance. Too many guys are only worried that the orange envelopes keep coming... they couldn't care less about the ASSociation.

WOW.. alpa has really been doing a great job since 1978... But.. naaah we can't afford "disunity" when we have the most important contract of our careers coming up now can we? I mean after all, how can you possibly improve on this^^^^^.