Delta Pilots Association
01-07-2011 | 07:20 AM
#3981
No longer cares
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 12,109
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From: 767er Captain
Exactly. According to alpha, reroute, etc., ALPA has never made a single mistake. They are so good... always making the perfect decision on everything... maybe they should expand into general consulting. I'll bet the business world would pay HUGE for someone who sees everything with perfect clarity and never makes a mistake! This could be a huge profit center for ALPA. Then maybe we wouldn't have to pay any dues! 
01-07-2011 | 07:36 AM
#3982
Thread Starter
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,503
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Well, there is always a cost. You certainly don't think management gives us anything for free, besides water and peanuts. Everything in the contract has a cost, it will be figured by management, and every improvement you want will also come at a cost. I don't know why that is a hard concept to understand, or even one that should be a matter of contention. I am shopping for a new car, every little thing I want to add to a car, including car mats, has a cost to it. I decide what cars and what options fit my budget. If I want the V6, maybe I skip the moon roof. The choices go on and on.
Why should it surprise you that those same principles should apply to a multi billion pilot contract. If you want to make reserve better, there will be a cost. So what. Maybe the MEC decides that cost is worthwhile for the pilot group or maybe they don't, that's democracy in action. If they decide it is worthwhile, then it will impact gains in other sections of the contract. Those are just immutable facts and should not vex you. Instead, you merely need to convince your fellow pilots and your LEC reps that those costs are more important than other costs. We have 12,000 different opinions about how our contract should go, so don't be surprised if you opinion is not followed 100%.
I have never said your opposing view has no value, it is just if we disagree then you are the skeptic and I am the evil one who is keeping you down. Can't we both just be two people who disagree, why do you have to try to drag me down just because we disagree on tactics. I have a right to express my opinion just as forcefully as you do.
Why should it surprise you that those same principles should apply to a multi billion pilot contract. If you want to make reserve better, there will be a cost. So what. Maybe the MEC decides that cost is worthwhile for the pilot group or maybe they don't, that's democracy in action. If they decide it is worthwhile, then it will impact gains in other sections of the contract. Those are just immutable facts and should not vex you. Instead, you merely need to convince your fellow pilots and your LEC reps that those costs are more important than other costs. We have 12,000 different opinions about how our contract should go, so don't be surprised if you opinion is not followed 100%.
I have never said your opposing view has no value, it is just if we disagree then you are the skeptic and I am the evil one who is keeping you down. Can't we both just be two people who disagree, why do you have to try to drag me down just because we disagree on tactics. I have a right to express my opinion just as forcefully as you do.
You are missing significant portions of the equation here that make it invalid. Leverage and credit: The basic tenets.
Please, never go near a negotiation that is taking place on behalf of the pilots of Delta Air Lines. That would be extremely hazardous and potentially detrimental to the pilot group.
Last edited by TheManager; 01-07-2011 at 09:19 AM.
01-07-2011 | 08:35 AM
#3983
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 931
Likes: 0
From: B-7ER JFK
01-07-2011 | 09:28 AM
#3984
No longer cares
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 12,109
Likes: 0
From: 767er Captain
No I think they have their fingers on the pulse. You are posting among the most vocal group of malcontents in the group. The vast majority of pilots out there don't know... and more importantly, don't care about this as long as the orange envelope keeps coming (dated reference). And THAT group makes up a very big portion of the pilot group.. therefore.. they (alpa) can take a "what, me worry?" attitude about all of this. Like ACL and Alfa keep saying.. (sic) they know what's best for us, and you will be told what is "the best contract we're gonna get" when the time comes. So just enjoy the show.
In case you don't believe me though, start asking people about DPA... you will get a "huh?"
In case you don't believe me though, start asking people about DPA... you will get a "huh?"
Last edited by tsquare; 01-07-2011 at 09:38 AM.
01-07-2011 | 10:21 AM
#3985
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
Likes: 0
And here is mine. You probably were challenged in math and/or perhaps logic when you were in school.
You are missing significant portions of the equation here that make it invalid. Leverage and credit: The basic tenets.
Please, never go near a negotiation that is taking place on behalf of the pilots of Delta Air Lines. That would be extremely hazardous and potentially detrimental to the pilot group.
You are missing significant portions of the equation here that make it invalid. Leverage and credit: The basic tenets.
Please, never go near a negotiation that is taking place on behalf of the pilots of Delta Air Lines. That would be extremely hazardous and potentially detrimental to the pilot group.
01-07-2011 | 10:33 AM
#3986
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
Likes: 0
I will type very slowly for you. 46% paycut... no retirement. All costs have been paid in advance. Pilot salaries are hedged at 1990 rates. Do the math. It is alpa's JOB to remind the company of this. Now I know that DPA is a dead issue, because the THREAT is that alpa will be on the street if the don't deliver, but once the contract is signed, everybody will forget about DPA. So we are stuck with alpa.. and again, they know this so they do not give DPA or it's supporters.. and by proxy those that are dissatisfied with alpa any quarter. They couldn't care less that there are dissatisfied members out there as long as their numbers don't exceed 50%+1... and they know that they are well within that safety zone. And it is NOT democracy in a pure form.. but you knew that...
But I digress. I do not think you are the evil one. I just see your perspective. It is one of satisfaction. Mine is not. Soldier on Gunga Din.
But I digress. I do not think you are the evil one. I just see your perspective. It is one of satisfaction. Mine is not. Soldier on Gunga Din.
I am glad you have a superior attitude about your satisfaction. Other than complaining on a web board, I am not sure what you have done to improve my lot in life. It is real easy to Monday morning quarterback when you are not in the game. I know how difficult things are and try to understand the environment. That is not satisfaction that is dealing with the world as it is and not how I wish it were in some fantasy land. You get to complain to me about your paycut and your retirement, whom do I get to complain to? You know I am in the same boat as you, same contract, same everything. Your holier than thou attitude would have a little more credibility if you did something useful to fix our predicament beyond griping.
So I am now putting it on your shoulders. I am mad about my contract and I want you to fix it now. Let me know when my check arrives.
01-07-2011 | 12:31 PM
#3987
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,462
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I know the Tennessee schools may not be the best in the country, and your statements don't help their reputation.
01-07-2011 | 02:17 PM
#3988
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,642
Likes: 0
From: right for a long, long time
Here we go again - YOU do the math. Add up your PBGC benefit, MPPP money that was already distributed, Note allocation, and your 11-14% DC that you've been receiving since 2006 and are scheduled to receive until you retire. Tell me what that equals, then tell me how you equate that to "no retirement".
I know the Tennessee schools may not be the best in the country, and your statements don't help their reputation.
I know the Tennessee schools may not be the best in the country, and your statements don't help their reputation.
I think you mean that the "other payouts" plus the B plan will equal out to the A plan in the end.
I think you were debating different points.
At what point (xx years until retirement) does the 13-14% B plan only exceed what the A plan would have netted? As a rough estimate only, investment choices vary from person to person....
01-07-2011 | 02:36 PM
#3989
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,462
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BTW, it may or may not equal what was PROMISED under the A Plan, and I am not implying that either way; but he traded a big promise from an A Plan for a smaller promise from the PBGC plus cash deposited in his name in his own account twice/month.
Too many variables to even wager a guess. Investment return, payrates now and in the future, seat progression, inflation, bidding preferences, age at retirement, longevity after retirement, etc. etc. etc. It's pointless to compare apples to oranges. Each plan has its benefits. Most of us have a little of each now, with the new hires having a pure DC.
01-07-2011 | 03:25 PM
#3990
Back on TDY
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,487
Likes: 0
From: 747-400 Captain
Carl
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