Delta Pilots Association
12-09-2010 | 04:42 PM
#3481
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 588
Likes: 0
From: A-320/A
I've been kinda' following this thread. I, for one, am at least glad to see people involved, passionate, and debating their respective positions. Considering that most contracts (the ones I've voted on, anyway) barely have a majority that even PARTICIPATE IN the voting process, this conversation is encouraging, in a fashion. My hope is that it'll get "a fire lit" under our pilot group. Just my $.02 worth...
Respectfully,
chuck
Respectfully,
chuck
12-09-2010 | 05:00 PM
#3482
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 6,844
Likes: 0
From: 765-A
So who would you blame if a contract was ratified by 50.1% that gave a big pay raise but gave up 100 seat scope or relaxed work rules that alleviated the need for pilots?
I have sat at dinner with Captains that said they will sell 100 seat scope in a heart beat if it put more money in their pocket. They will strangle the company so it goes belly up they day after they retire.
I started this bomb throwing in response to a certain 74 captain who said junior guys should take one for the team and suck up the furlough. The "profession" will be better for it. Clearly I don't paint all senior guys with that brush, and if I gave that impression I'm sorry.
We all have one vote. We all vote our own self interests. Just don't tell me that mine don't matter and I should be altruistic for your benefit.
"Restoration" really sticks in my craw. The past is the past. You can't get it back. To pine away for it is counter productive and will only leave you bitter. What we get paid is a function of the market. Who knows, maybe the market will dictate higher than C2K rates. I doubt it but I am willing to trust the market.
Why is my repeated concern for job protection and security whining when some others repeated lamentations about pay rates not? Both are at the root about money. Money you you lost or money I may lose. Both are devastating to career earnings. You've been through it. Don't be surprised when I don't want to go through it.
Bottom line is I think I have just as much right to my job as Carl or DAL or anyone else here. When they say I should suck it up and gladly accept being unemployed for the good of the Profession, I'm going to fight back.
I have sat at dinner with Captains that said they will sell 100 seat scope in a heart beat if it put more money in their pocket. They will strangle the company so it goes belly up they day after they retire.
I started this bomb throwing in response to a certain 74 captain who said junior guys should take one for the team and suck up the furlough. The "profession" will be better for it. Clearly I don't paint all senior guys with that brush, and if I gave that impression I'm sorry.
We all have one vote. We all vote our own self interests. Just don't tell me that mine don't matter and I should be altruistic for your benefit.
"Restoration" really sticks in my craw. The past is the past. You can't get it back. To pine away for it is counter productive and will only leave you bitter. What we get paid is a function of the market. Who knows, maybe the market will dictate higher than C2K rates. I doubt it but I am willing to trust the market.
Why is my repeated concern for job protection and security whining when some others repeated lamentations about pay rates not? Both are at the root about money. Money you you lost or money I may lose. Both are devastating to career earnings. You've been through it. Don't be surprised when I don't want to go through it.
Bottom line is I think I have just as much right to my job as Carl or DAL or anyone else here. When they say I should suck it up and gladly accept being unemployed for the good of the Profession, I'm going to fight back.
1.) I thought that certain 747-400 captain said, "if you get furloughed-suck it up" not "you should get furloughed, to take one for the team." There is a difference. Right?
2.) I have never seen ANYONE on APC EVER advocate giving up 100 seat scope for ANY reason. So, there is really no reason to blame anyone on here for it, if it happened. (Which it won't.) If I remember correctly though, that same certain captain is a big scope hawk, too.
As I pointed out before, why can't we be for both? Scope and Pay.
3.) Your repeated concern for job protection and security is not considered to be whining in my book. I consider it to be more naive than anything else. Low pay does not equate to job protection.
I think you are attaching some of the ill feelings you have for some of the captains you fly with -- and go to dinner with -- to people on here who are only agreeing with those guys on one point. (Pay)
None of us want you to get furloughed, so you are fighting the wrong people. Duke it out with your dinner mate(s), or avoid flying with them.
New K Now
Last edited by newKnow; 12-09-2010 at 05:13 PM.
12-09-2010 | 05:03 PM
#3483
Da Hudge
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,473
Likes: 0
From: Poodle Whisperer
So who would you blame if a contract was ratified by 50.1% that gave a big pay raise but gave up 100 seat scope or relaxed work rules that alleviated the need for pilots?
I have sat at dinner with Captains that said they will sell 100 seat scope in a heart beat if it put more money in their pocket. They will strangle the company so it goes belly up they day after they retire.
I started this bomb throwing in response to a certain 74 captain who said junior guys should take one for the team and suck up the furlough. The "profession" will be better for it. Clearly I don't paint all senior guys with that brush, and if I gave that impression I'm sorry.
We all have one vote. We all vote our own self interests. Just don't tell me that mine don't matter and I should be altruistic for your benefit.
"Restoration" really sticks in my craw. The past is the past. You can't get it back. To pine away for it is counter productive and will only leave you bitter. What we get paid is a function of the market. Who knows, maybe the market will dictate higher than C2K rates. I doubt it but I am willing to trust the market.
Why is my repeated concern for job protection and security whining when some others repeated lamentations about pay rates not? Both are at the root about money. Money you you lost or money I may lose. Both are devastating to career earnings. You've been through it. Don't be surprised when I don't want to go through it.
Bottom line is I think I have just as much right to my job as Carl or DAL or anyone else here. When they say I should suck it up and gladly accept being unemployed for the good of the Profession, I'm going to fight back.
I have sat at dinner with Captains that said they will sell 100 seat scope in a heart beat if it put more money in their pocket. They will strangle the company so it goes belly up they day after they retire.
I started this bomb throwing in response to a certain 74 captain who said junior guys should take one for the team and suck up the furlough. The "profession" will be better for it. Clearly I don't paint all senior guys with that brush, and if I gave that impression I'm sorry.
We all have one vote. We all vote our own self interests. Just don't tell me that mine don't matter and I should be altruistic for your benefit.
"Restoration" really sticks in my craw. The past is the past. You can't get it back. To pine away for it is counter productive and will only leave you bitter. What we get paid is a function of the market. Who knows, maybe the market will dictate higher than C2K rates. I doubt it but I am willing to trust the market.
Why is my repeated concern for job protection and security whining when some others repeated lamentations about pay rates not? Both are at the root about money. Money you you lost or money I may lose. Both are devastating to career earnings. You've been through it. Don't be surprised when I don't want to go through it.
Bottom line is I think I have just as much right to my job as Carl or DAL or anyone else here. When they say I should suck it up and gladly accept being unemployed for the good of the Profession, I'm going to fight back.
So, your entire premise of taking a furlough for a good contract is a result of some incredibly deep misinterpration that you just haven't been able to let go. I'm a good bit junior to you, and I can see it! Open your eyes! All your posts have been lately revolve around that one premise when it is deeply deeply flawed.
While the topic giving up any job protections/scope comes up a lot on here NO ONE supports it- not the deep entrenched alpa guys, not the militant dpa guys, and not those that fall somewhere in between.
I've flown with one guy that has said he doesn't really care about scope and what happens with it over a period of just under 4 years here. Scope givebacks are done, job givebacks are done- I don't see ALPA supporting it anymore and obviously the DPA wouldn't either.
12-09-2010 | 05:11 PM
#3484
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 6,844
Likes: 0
From: 765-A
We all have one vote. We all vote our own self interests. Just don't tell me that mine don't matter and I should be altruistic for your benefit.
"Restoration" really sticks in my craw. The past is the past. You can't get it back. To pine away for it is counter productive and will only leave you bitter. What we get paid is a function of the market. Who knows, maybe the market will dictate higher than C2K rates. I doubt it but I am willing to trust the market......
"Restoration" really sticks in my craw. The past is the past. You can't get it back. To pine away for it is counter productive and will only leave you bitter. What we get paid is a function of the market. Who knows, maybe the market will dictate higher than C2K rates. I doubt it but I am willing to trust the market......
You should be careful about what you are arguing for, as well. Some crafty lawyer-type guy could show that you are asking that we return to the B scale.
12-09-2010 | 05:15 PM
#3485
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 6,844
Likes: 0
From: 765-A
satch, youre barking up the wrong tree here (at least with the people that post on this site and I would say a good majority of the guys I encounter from day to day) in that guys aren't talking about giving up job protection or scope in exchange for pay increases. No one is! Carl, despite what he said about "suck it up" has never advocated any scope relaxation, in fact has adomantly opposed it.
So, your entire premise of taking a furlough for a good contract is a result of some incredibly deep misinterpration that you just haven't been able to let go. I'm a good bit junior to you, and I can see it! Open your eyes! All your posts have been lately revolve around that one premise when it is deeply deeply flawed.
While the topic giving up any job protections/scope comes up a lot on here NO ONE supports it- not the deep entrenched alpa guys, not the militant dpa guys, and not those that fall somewhere in between.
I've flown with one guy that has said he doesn't really care about scope and what happens with it over a period of just under 4 years here. Scope givebacks are done, job givebacks are done- I don't see ALPA supporting it anymore and obviously the DPA wouldn't either.
So, your entire premise of taking a furlough for a good contract is a result of some incredibly deep misinterpration that you just haven't been able to let go. I'm a good bit junior to you, and I can see it! Open your eyes! All your posts have been lately revolve around that one premise when it is deeply deeply flawed.
While the topic giving up any job protections/scope comes up a lot on here NO ONE supports it- not the deep entrenched alpa guys, not the militant dpa guys, and not those that fall somewhere in between.
I've flown with one guy that has said he doesn't really care about scope and what happens with it over a period of just under 4 years here. Scope givebacks are done, job givebacks are done- I don't see ALPA supporting it anymore and obviously the DPA wouldn't either.
12-09-2010 | 05:16 PM
#3486
At home on the maddog!
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,874
Likes: 0
From: Retired (mandatory age 65)
NewK and 80kts:
Thanks for saving me a whole bunch of typing! I was going to say exactly what you guys said.
Satchip:
I'm really sorry to hear that you have run across anyone who would advocate giving up scope for pay. I don't think that point of view is representative of any significant portion of this pilot group.
Thanks for saving me a whole bunch of typing! I was going to say exactly what you guys said.
Satchip:
I'm really sorry to hear that you have run across anyone who would advocate giving up scope for pay. I don't think that point of view is representative of any significant portion of this pilot group.
12-09-2010 | 05:31 PM
#3488
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 6,844
Likes: 0
From: 765-A
NewK and 80kts:
Thanks for saving me a whole bunch of typing! I was going to say exactly what you guys said.
Satchip:
I'm really sorry to hear that you have run across anyone who would advocate giving up scope for pay. I don't think that point of view is representative of any significant portion of this pilot group.
Thanks for saving me a whole bunch of typing! I was going to say exactly what you guys said.
Satchip:
I'm really sorry to hear that you have run across anyone who would advocate giving up scope for pay. I don't think that point of view is representative of any significant portion of this pilot group.
12-09-2010 | 07:08 PM
#3489
Happy to be here
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 18,563
Likes: 0
From: A-320A
I too have had guys tell me that they would see 100 seat flying tomorrow. We then have a little conversation about JV's, and Code Shares and they all of a sudden realize, almost all of them, that Scope is not a junior job protection. I point out that the AF JV gives them 50% of the growth across the North Atlantic. I also point out all of the deals that DAL has done wrt to code shares and jv's throughout the world. I then tell them that it is my belief that these deals are the half step before foreign ownership requirements are relaxed or done away with.
By the end of the dinner, all seem to understand that scope is about all jets. It is for large jets in good times and for small jets in bad time. It is about defining our profession and what a Delta Pilot flies. I think that most do not get scope, and need to be talked though a great many of its finer points.
There will always be a few that want money and the group be darned, but the majority of pilots will never vote for it (SJS Sales). Heck I do not see it getting out of the MEC Council, so it is all academic.
By the end of the dinner, all seem to understand that scope is about all jets. It is for large jets in good times and for small jets in bad time. It is about defining our profession and what a Delta Pilot flies. I think that most do not get scope, and need to be talked though a great many of its finer points.
There will always be a few that want money and the group be darned, but the majority of pilots will never vote for it (SJS Sales). Heck I do not see it getting out of the MEC Council, so it is all academic.
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