Does SKW honor seniority like a union shop?
05-29-2019, 06:31 PM
#31
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Joined APC: Mar 2011
Position: 737 FO
Posts: 2,481
Originally Posted by amcnd
I’m not going into that discussion... Start asking around how long airlines negotiations went on before they got a contract...
05-29-2019, 06:37 PM
#32
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Joined APC: Mar 2011
Position: 737 FO
Posts: 2,481
Originally Posted by amcnd
Some airlines displace like crazy. I was kicked out of 3 domiciles and 4 seats at eagle.... pick your poison...
05-29-2019, 06:42 PM
#33
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Joined APC: Dec 2018
Posts: 1,067
Originally Posted by Check Complete
He showed me the letter of why he was bypassed. He would have to take another base until a SLC position opened, and he can't take that risk. Yes he could have upgraded and had an awful schedule, he didn't want that either.
Why can't a person bid an airplane in their base? Because it's a difficulty the company doesn't want to deal with.
Plain and simple, it's wrong, and it's a violation of seniority that would never happen at virtually all other airlines. If this ever happened at D or U it would be world war III!
Why can't a person bid an airplane in their base? Because it's a difficulty the company doesn't want to deal with.
Plain and simple, it's wrong, and it's a violation of seniority that would never happen at virtually all other airlines. If this ever happened at D or U it would be world war III!
05-29-2019, 07:26 PM
#34
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Joined APC: Apr 2010
Posts: 803
Originally Posted by amcnd
Some airlines displace like crazy. I was kicked out of 3 domiciles and 4 seats at eagle.... pick your poison...
Can that be said here? Ask a SEA or PDX CRJ pilot how the displacements worked?
Consider this;
We have a situation similar to the Boeing MAX, in that that model may not even fly again this year, but maybe sooner, who knows? It’s been what, 4 months now? I haven’t kept track? Let’s say one of our fleet types is grounded for the foreseeable future. Do you really think the company would pay 75 hours to everybody to go on a three week fishing trip? Do you really think they would furlough in reverse seniority to only one of their fleet type that is flying? Train thousands of guys to fly a different type because it was written that way in an unenforceable poorly written document that really has zero legal bearing? Or do you think some cunning accountant would legally keep one side of the airline flying and cut out the cancerous side with some choice words to keep the share holders happy?
I’m pretty sure I know what would happen. And don’t say it isn’t possible, many years ago every CRJ in the world was grounded. Some S/N’s for a few days and some for many weeks. As I said what if what has plagued the MAX were to happen so to say the 175?
If you think the realm of seniority would be honored, I don’t know what to tell you. Because it won’t. Company need is what has always prevailed, and that is not going to change unless the pilot group decides to protect themselves.
05-29-2019, 09:04 PM
#35
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Joined APC: Dec 2018
Posts: 1,067
Originally Posted by Check Complete
Maybe, but seniority has always been, should always be, and must remain a double edged sword. And while people may have been displaced or down graded, at least the written rules were used.
Can that be said here? Ask a SEA or PDX CRJ pilot how the displacements worked?
Consider this;
We have a situation similar to the Boeing MAX, in that that model may not even fly again this year, but maybe sooner, who knows? It’s been what, 4 months now? I haven’t kept track? Let’s say one of our fleet types is grounded for the foreseeable future. Do you really think the company would pay 75 hours to everybody to go on a three week fishing trip? Do you really think they would furlough in reverse seniority to only one of their fleet type that is flying? Train thousands of guys to fly a different type because it was written that way in an unenforceable poorly written document that really has zero legal bearing? Or do you think some cunning accountant would legally keep one side of the airline flying and cut out the cancerous side with some choice words to keep the share holders happy?
I’m pretty sure I know what would happen. And don’t say it isn’t possible, many years ago every CRJ in the world was grounded. Some S/N’s for a few days and some for many weeks. As I said what if what has plagued the MAX were to happen so to say the 175?
If you think the realm of seniority would be honored, I don’t know what to tell you. Because it won’t. Company need is what has always prevailed, and that is not going to change unless the pilot group decides to protect themselves.
Can that be said here? Ask a SEA or PDX CRJ pilot how the displacements worked?
Consider this;
We have a situation similar to the Boeing MAX, in that that model may not even fly again this year, but maybe sooner, who knows? It’s been what, 4 months now? I haven’t kept track? Let’s say one of our fleet types is grounded for the foreseeable future. Do you really think the company would pay 75 hours to everybody to go on a three week fishing trip? Do you really think they would furlough in reverse seniority to only one of their fleet type that is flying? Train thousands of guys to fly a different type because it was written that way in an unenforceable poorly written document that really has zero legal bearing? Or do you think some cunning accountant would legally keep one side of the airline flying and cut out the cancerous side with some choice words to keep the share holders happy?
I’m pretty sure I know what would happen. And don’t say it isn’t possible, many years ago every CRJ in the world was grounded. Some S/N’s for a few days and some for many weeks. As I said what if what has plagued the MAX were to happen so to say the 175?
If you think the realm of seniority would be honored, I don’t know what to tell you. Because it won’t. Company need is what has always prevailed, and that is not going to change unless the pilot group decides to protect themselves.
05-30-2019, 03:45 AM
#36
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Joined APC: May 2011
Posts: 382
Originally Posted by amcnd
I’m not going into that discussion... Start asking around how long airlines negotiations went on before they got a contract...
JetBlue - Joined ALPA 2014, first CBA 2018
Virgin America - Joined ALPA 2015, first CBA 2016 (granted, this was due to Alaska merger)
CommutAir - Joined ALPA 2008, first CBA 2011
Those are the three most recent US airlines I’m aware of that have organized. None took five to eight years as you claim.
Secondly, do you really think that in the current hiring environment for regional pilots Skywest can afford to remain stagnant for an extended time period?
05-30-2019, 07:17 PM
#37
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Joined APC: Oct 2016
Posts: 846
Does SKW honor seniority like a union shop?
Originally Posted by Utah
I call BS. She probably went to training and then sent back to the right seat. She probably didn't want to tell you that. And many years ago it was up or out...
I've known several guys that were sent back to the right seat.. and then later upgraded after working on some things.
I've known several guys that were sent back to the right seat.. and then later upgraded after working on some things.
Originally Posted by rickair7777
What AMCND said.
It happened rarely, but when it did it was for VERY good reason and never to my knowledge for any reason but safety.
It happened rarely, but when it did it was for VERY good reason and never to my knowledge for any reason but safety.
But Check Complete seems to be corroborating the story.
Originally Posted by Check Complete
I'm very familiar with this particular event, as an FO the Captain's decision was questioned. Turns out the FO was completely correct and the Captain's idea was, well, retarded. The Captain in question got all butt hurt and called his buddy director at HQ and they went after blood. And yes, she was not allowed to upgrade. Got pulled down to SGU for a little attitude adjustment because she was able to show how bad the Captain's decision actually was and wouldn't relent that she had made a wrong decision.
The seniority system has and can be superseded by company need. Nothing will change because the most important entity is happy with the results. And thus there is also PBS and that has been hurting people for so long the pain isn't noticeable any more.
The seniority system has and can be superseded by company need. Nothing will change because the most important entity is happy with the results. And thus there is also PBS and that has been hurting people for so long the pain isn't noticeable any more.
05-30-2019, 07:21 PM
#38
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Joined APC: Oct 2016
Posts: 846
Originally Posted by amcnd
Some airlines displace like crazy. I was kicked out of 3 domiciles and 4 seats at eagle.... pick your poison...
That is a different topic. It seems the discussion is how seniority is used. Not whether certain airlines displace a lot or not. You can be at an airline that displaces like crazy but if seniority is followed in accordance to the contract, then there isn’t really a seniority issue.
05-31-2019, 08:23 AM
#39
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Joined APC: Oct 2016
Posts: 846
Does SKW honor seniority like a union shop?
Originally Posted by amcnd
Exactly. I blame Sapa for all that. They don’t push the issue.. would alpa be better on this issue. Probably in 5-8 years. Not immediately... when that happened to Seattle. It was 5 guys. Not 500. Yes 5 is to many. But we don’t have “hundreds” with this issue.. the biggest was SLC CRJ FO’s there were 21 people.. they have all trained or forfeited there bid..
A ratified contract may take a couple years but what does happen immediately if you certify a union is that you go into status quo. That basically means that management can not change its current practices when dealing with pilots. In essence, your current book and past precedences and practices become a contract until you negotiate a new one. They can no longer reinterpret, add, change, delete, emphasize, etc., your current book. Any of those changes would have to be negotiated and ratified. This not only goes for work rules but also the way discipline is handled. In fact, the first thing that would be negotiated, even before a contract, is a dispute resolution process that complies with the RLA and NMB regulations, that include the ability to have a neutral arbitrator make the final decision.
Even if we assume your guess of 5-8 years is correct, the sooner you start the clock, the sooner you get to the end. Otherwise, 5-8 years later people are still making the excuse that it’ll take 5-8 years. So if it’s 3 years to reach the goal of a contract, then it’s better to start sooner rather than later.
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