Delta AIP
12-04-2022 | 07:41 AM
#21
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Joined: Nov 2022
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Because it is not our problem to figure out how the company can make a profit. That's why they C-Suite is paid millions. If the cost of tickets need to go up, so be it. Everything is going up in price from food, gas, power, travel etc. Your entire post is essentially telling us to sell out for the sake of the company. No thanks.
I guess thats the risk of trying to communicate in writing.
My question is wouldn’t all of the employees be better off at the bargaining table if the staff was united, and the customer experience was better than the competition?
It has nothing to do with selling out. Quite the opposite. Its about bringing more to the table. Its a service business. Better experience = more fares = better pay.
Isn’t that what built the brand? The forum just reads as if the pilots, the FAs, the “rampers”, the marshalls, etc are all on different teams. That just seems disjointed, inefficient, and not a way to compete in the market or in contract negotiations.
Is that how it is in real life, or just a false impression from the forum?
12-04-2022 | 07:45 AM
#22
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 7,573
Likes: 283
From: DOWNGRADE COMPLETE: Thanks Gary. Thanks SWAPA.
Help with some math and industry POV.
Some of the proposals here (55-60%) would require a non-negligible increase in fares, headed into an economic downturn.
Does anyone know the average pilot wage spread across the group? It would simplify the math.
EBITDA has run around $4B with net running $2B pre-Covid. A $50k increase across 10,000 pilots is $500MM, or 25% of net (approx 2.5% top-line). I get the sense that a $50k increase on avg is not popular here.
The avg fare for 2019 looks like $128 - ish.
If the goal of the pilot group is $75k avg bump or 100k…has anyone run the math on how that affects sales? How many fewer flight will be flown, and how much will the profit sharing be reduced?
Also, is there any discussion to unite the overall employee groups or encouragement to maximize top-line? I read stuff on here that seems counter-productive to the business. Surely everyone understands more total profits and a better customer experience provided by a united hard-working team gives everyone more bargaining power.
I’m concerned (wondering) about hitching my wagon to a group that isn’t focused on being better than the competition to ensure long-term security and revenue. The pie will shrink in a down-turn but it seems like pilots could set a great tone to grow a bigger share of that pie with the slightest bit of focus on where the bread gets buttered.
What am I missing? Some attitudes here are a death march toward automation, and a divided workforce which is easily beaten in negotiations. Check out the rail deal. No savior for unions regardless of party.
I have ZERO 121 experience. Outsider. Wannabe. Clueless.
Educate me.
Tell me why if I was running the union I wouldn’t want every pilot setting the tone, BELOVED by customers, their kids, and ALL of the other staff groups making it happen? Why wouldn’t I want other pilots from other companies jealous as hell of the SWA experience? Why wouldn’t I want the folks on the ramp feeling appreciated as part of one team, with a culture lead by pilots (who might go toss a bag once in awhile)?
Why wouldn’t I want the PILOTS to be the face of the airline, always supporting the brand? When it comes time for negotiations, NOW you hold the cards at the table because you are more than just an expense, you are the top line.
Maybe I’m crazy but the pilots/team are the ones who see the customers every day, not the CSuite. Why not own that, and control the brand?
As a former employer, its so strange to read about members of the team essentially sabotaging profits. The contract and striking becomes the only leverage…thats so backwards in a customer facing environment where the front line has the ability to OWN the brand. Be undeniable, get paid.
Blast away. I want to understand this beast.
Some of the proposals here (55-60%) would require a non-negligible increase in fares, headed into an economic downturn.
Does anyone know the average pilot wage spread across the group? It would simplify the math.
EBITDA has run around $4B with net running $2B pre-Covid. A $50k increase across 10,000 pilots is $500MM, or 25% of net (approx 2.5% top-line). I get the sense that a $50k increase on avg is not popular here.
The avg fare for 2019 looks like $128 - ish.
If the goal of the pilot group is $75k avg bump or 100k…has anyone run the math on how that affects sales? How many fewer flight will be flown, and how much will the profit sharing be reduced?
Also, is there any discussion to unite the overall employee groups or encouragement to maximize top-line? I read stuff on here that seems counter-productive to the business. Surely everyone understands more total profits and a better customer experience provided by a united hard-working team gives everyone more bargaining power.
I’m concerned (wondering) about hitching my wagon to a group that isn’t focused on being better than the competition to ensure long-term security and revenue. The pie will shrink in a down-turn but it seems like pilots could set a great tone to grow a bigger share of that pie with the slightest bit of focus on where the bread gets buttered.
What am I missing? Some attitudes here are a death march toward automation, and a divided workforce which is easily beaten in negotiations. Check out the rail deal. No savior for unions regardless of party.
I have ZERO 121 experience. Outsider. Wannabe. Clueless.
Educate me.
Tell me why if I was running the union I wouldn’t want every pilot setting the tone, BELOVED by customers, their kids, and ALL of the other staff groups making it happen? Why wouldn’t I want other pilots from other companies jealous as hell of the SWA experience? Why wouldn’t I want the folks on the ramp feeling appreciated as part of one team, with a culture lead by pilots (who might go toss a bag once in awhile)?
Why wouldn’t I want the PILOTS to be the face of the airline, always supporting the brand? When it comes time for negotiations, NOW you hold the cards at the table because you are more than just an expense, you are the top line.
Maybe I’m crazy but the pilots/team are the ones who see the customers every day, not the CSuite. Why not own that, and control the brand?
As a former employer, its so strange to read about members of the team essentially sabotaging profits. The contract and striking becomes the only leverage…thats so backwards in a customer facing environment where the front line has the ability to OWN the brand. Be undeniable, get paid.
Blast away. I want to understand this beast.
- You’d be a perfect fit for SWA. They love the type that talks themselves into accepting less and feeling good about it all in the name of “getting along” & “long-term” sustainability.
Christ. I can’t wait to retire and not deal with low self-worth coworkers who constantly find a way to devalue our profession.
12-04-2022 | 07:58 AM
#23
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Joined: Nov 2022
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Fares have gone up 40%+. Inflation has gone up way more than what the gubmint claims it has. Here me educating you as you solicited:
- You’d be a perfect fit for SWA. They love the type that talks themselves into accepting less and feeling good about it all in the name of “getting along” & “long-term” sustainability.
Christ. I can’t wait to retire and not deal with low self-worth coworkers who constantly find a way to devalue our profession.
- You’d be a perfect fit for SWA. They love the type that talks themselves into accepting less and feeling good about it all in the name of “getting along” & “long-term” sustainability.
Christ. I can’t wait to retire and not deal with low self-worth coworkers who constantly find a way to devalue our profession.
I have only read the most recent annual report. Fares may have gone up but bottom line was under $1B. Thats why I looked at 2019 for a more normal year.
Self-worth, thats more of a personal discussion so I’m not sure the internet makes sense for that one.
If every group is out for their own, management will count beans. If there is a united workgroup that elevates the customer experience, doesn’t that carry a monetary value to the shareholder? Wouldn’t pilots command more $$ as beloved leaders of a larger team?
12-04-2022 | 07:59 AM
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 4,163
Likes: 144
I guess thats the risk of trying to communicate in writing.
My question is wouldn’t all of the employees be better off at the bargaining table if the staff was united, and the customer experience was better than the competition?
It has nothing to do with selling out. Quite the opposite. Its about bringing more to the table. Its a service business. Better experience = more fares = better pay.
Isn’t that what built the brand? The forum just reads as if the pilots, the FAs, the “rampers”, the marshalls, etc are all on different teams. That just seems disjointed, inefficient, and not a way to compete in the market or in contract negotiations.
Is that how it is in real life, or just a false impression from the forum?
My question is wouldn’t all of the employees be better off at the bargaining table if the staff was united, and the customer experience was better than the competition?
It has nothing to do with selling out. Quite the opposite. Its about bringing more to the table. Its a service business. Better experience = more fares = better pay.
Isn’t that what built the brand? The forum just reads as if the pilots, the FAs, the “rampers”, the marshalls, etc are all on different teams. That just seems disjointed, inefficient, and not a way to compete in the market or in contract negotiations.
Is that how it is in real life, or just a false impression from the forum?
Its the companies job to figure out how to pay us what is required and if that means increases in fairs, so be it. Southwest is already about the best ranked airline in its class, so not a lot more we can do to increase that levers power.
12-04-2022 | 08:02 AM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,656
Likes: 302
Just based off current rates we are around 3% below DL 737 rates. 5% off their 757 rates (our -800’s hold as many people when you figure our all coach configuration).
They’re getting a minimum 18% snap up. It’ll go higher when you figure the +1% on whatever UAL/AA end up being. So let’s say it’s in the 20-22% range for the final number. Add 3-5% to get us to parity and goes when we’ll actually get a TA ….and it’s around 28% (if they ratify early ‘23 and we ratify EOY or ‘24…they’ll have another 5% coming due to their COLA raise).
They’re getting a minimum 18% snap up. It’ll go higher when you figure the +1% on whatever UAL/AA end up being. So let’s say it’s in the 20-22% range for the final number. Add 3-5% to get us to parity and goes when we’ll actually get a TA ….and it’s around 28% (if they ratify early ‘23 and we ratify EOY or ‘24…they’ll have another 5% coming due to their COLA raise).
12-04-2022 | 08:03 AM
#26
Line Holder
Joined: Nov 2022
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
They are separate work groups and are often pitted against each other by the very company you reference. These boards tend to highlight the negative side of the airline world, regardless of which one you are reading, however I have found life on the line to be a much more manageable experience.
…snip..
…snip..
Thank you for the reasoned response and for allowing a noob to gain perspective. I have several SWA pilot friends who feel the same about the great pilot group etc.
12-04-2022 | 10:38 AM
#29
Gets Weekend Reserve
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,259
Likes: 241
From: B737CA
I guess thats the risk of trying to communicate in writing.
My question is wouldn’t all of the employees be better off at the bargaining table if the staff was united, and the customer experience was better than the competition?
It has nothing to do with selling out. Quite the opposite. Its about bringing more to the table. Its a service business. Better experience = more fares = better pay.
Isn’t that what built the brand? The forum just reads as if the pilots, the FAs, the “rampers”, the marshalls, etc are all on different teams. That just seems disjointed, inefficient, and not a way to compete in the market or in contract negotiations.
Is that how it is in real life, or just a false impression from the forum?
My question is wouldn’t all of the employees be better off at the bargaining table if the staff was united, and the customer experience was better than the competition?
It has nothing to do with selling out. Quite the opposite. Its about bringing more to the table. Its a service business. Better experience = more fares = better pay.
Isn’t that what built the brand? The forum just reads as if the pilots, the FAs, the “rampers”, the marshalls, etc are all on different teams. That just seems disjointed, inefficient, and not a way to compete in the market or in contract negotiations.
Is that how it is in real life, or just a false impression from the forum?
Years ago, business gurus used to apply the business school conundrum to me: ‘Who comes first? Your shareholders, your employees, or your customers?’ I said, ‘Well, that’s easy,’ but my response was heresy at that time. I said employees come first and if employees are treated right, they treat the outside world right, the outside world uses the company’s product again, and that makes the shareholders happy. That really is the way that it works, and it’s not a conundrum at all.
So right now... it's FUPM. I want the industry-leading contract in every aspect, and I'm willing to go on a strike to achieve it.
12-04-2022 | 10:48 AM
#30
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 4,554
Likes: 397
Correct.
Do some reading and be like a mouse...big ears and little mouth. Eventually you will discover the truth. In the meantime, don't ask to be spoon fed. I would never come into a business you own and suggest on the first day that they set it up as a union shop because that's the best way to achieve their goals.
Airlines are unionized for a reason. If you get a little experience in the industry, it won't take long to figure out why.
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