Is SW really that bad?
05-24-2023 | 02:37 PM
#51
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,264
Likes: 0
Lew, if your schedule is like you say it is, then I don't know what to tell you except you're probably doing this to yourself and your schedule is the result of your own poor bidding practices or choices.
Conversely, my schedule next month - most of my trips are one leg per day... on the last day, I do 2. My longest duty day is 8:05. Granted, I do ETOPS. Even when I flew mostly domestic, anything on my board that was anywhere remotely close to 11 hours of scheduled duty time would be ELITTed out in a NY second and replaced with something that doesn't work nearly as hard. You have the tools. It's your choice not to use them.
Conversely, my schedule next month - most of my trips are one leg per day... on the last day, I do 2. My longest duty day is 8:05. Granted, I do ETOPS. Even when I flew mostly domestic, anything on my board that was anywhere remotely close to 11 hours of scheduled duty time would be ELITTed out in a NY second and replaced with something that doesn't work nearly as hard. You have the tools. It's your choice not to use them.
Oy ve, the gaslighting never stops. It’s in perpetual supply at the Trailways.
05-24-2023 | 03:21 PM
#52
At your mom's house
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,675
Likes: 449
From: cpt 737
I guess if I was in my first yr here and didnt know any different I might think the same. Depends on what you were doing before.
for me though I've been here longer than a yr and the novelty has worn off.
The gripe I have is it's getting worse yr after yr not better and that's with more seniority. Sure I bid a better schedule but I dont end up flying it.
PM v AM is a valid point but AMs are too early for me. Not that I'm a night owl. Really neither AM nor PM is conducive to my sleep patterns.
We seriously need a third shift. Maybe in my last two yrs I'd be able to hold banker's hours trips if we had such a thing.
I'm in it to win it and will do what is asked to improve my/our situation.
But it is very worrisome that management has no clue and no mechanism to which be informed.
for me though I've been here longer than a yr and the novelty has worn off.
The gripe I have is it's getting worse yr after yr not better and that's with more seniority. Sure I bid a better schedule but I dont end up flying it.
PM v AM is a valid point but AMs are too early for me. Not that I'm a night owl. Really neither AM nor PM is conducive to my sleep patterns.
We seriously need a third shift. Maybe in my last two yrs I'd be able to hold banker's hours trips if we had such a thing.
I'm in it to win it and will do what is asked to improve my/our situation.
But it is very worrisome that management has no clue and no mechanism to which be informed.
05-24-2023 | 03:58 PM
#54
Furloughed Again?!
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,948
Likes: 109
From: Boeing 737
This is a huge point, When I was applying here one of the most attractive attributes was that nobody flies tired. If you’re a morning person, fly AMs. If you’re a night owl fly PMs. Nowadays though it doesn’t matter how much of a morning person you are, waking up at 3am is rough. And even the most devoted night owls probably want to be in bed before 4 or 5am. They’re burning the candle at both ends here and we’re collectively exhausted. I asked about it at the last town hall but my question didn’t get picked.
05-24-2023 | 04:00 PM
#55
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,264
Likes: 0
I guess if I was in my first yr here and didnt know any different I might think the same. Depends on what you were doing before.
for me though I've been here longer than a yr and the novelty has worn off.
The gripe I have is it's getting worse yr after yr not better and that's with more seniority. Sure I bid a better schedule but I dont end up flying it.
PM v AM is a valid point but AMs are too early for me. Not that I'm a night owl. Really neither AM nor PM is conducive to my sleep patterns.
We seriously need a third shift. Maybe in my last two yrs I'd be able to hold banker's hours trips if we had such a thing.
I'm in it to win it and will do what is asked to improve my/our situation.
But it is very worrisome that management has no clue and no mechanism to which be informed.
for me though I've been here longer than a yr and the novelty has worn off.
The gripe I have is it's getting worse yr after yr not better and that's with more seniority. Sure I bid a better schedule but I dont end up flying it.
PM v AM is a valid point but AMs are too early for me. Not that I'm a night owl. Really neither AM nor PM is conducive to my sleep patterns.
We seriously need a third shift. Maybe in my last two yrs I'd be able to hold banker's hours trips if we had such a thing.
I'm in it to win it and will do what is asked to improve my/our situation.
But it is very worrisome that management has no clue and no mechanism to which be informed.
Mark Walhlberg, for example, is known for his “extreme” routine of getting up a 2:30 am to pray, then work out.
David Goggins, who is billed by some as “The World’s Toughest Man” put out a video of himself out running in the dark at 3:30 am asking where all the billionaires were on the empty streets.
Most am’s seem to report between 4 and 5 am. I’ve always used a two hour before rule on am’s for when I need to get up. That means am’s require me to get up between 2 and 3 am. That’s for an originator. If I overnight in a city in a time zone ahead of me, that am wake-up is then even earlier in terms of body clock time.
Even if you reduce the time down to an hour before report to wake up, do all your morning prep and get to the airport, you’re still getting up between 3 and 4 am. Unless you live right next to the airport, that’s pretty hard to do.
Then, when not on a trip, do you keep getting up between 2 and 4 am to maintain your schedule and circadian rhythms? Or do you back to being a more normal morning person, getting up at 5 or 6 am and then having to reset again in three or four days when you go back on a trip?
05-24-2023 | 04:34 PM
#57
Line Holder
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 58
Likes: 0
Hoover, lewbronski, and MikeBB all nailed it. Our schedules are horrendous. I’m a ex regional guy and I often find our schedules to be worse than my XJT days. My other regional friends agree. The statement about things getting worse YOY….dead on accurate.
MikeBB addressing how out of touch management is with our operation….100%. It is palatable all the way down the food chain. You would thing our leadership brief in CQT might have been served with some humility after the melt down….nope.
Timed out for the second in a month yesterday, days are long hard and early starts. I don’t know how I’m going to do these schedules for 25 more years. I won’t even entertain PMs bc of my friends stories.
I lurk often but never post. It is as bad as you can imagine. I felt compelled to sign into the account to share. I’m a senior FO.
MikeBB addressing how out of touch management is with our operation….100%. It is palatable all the way down the food chain. You would thing our leadership brief in CQT might have been served with some humility after the melt down….nope.
Timed out for the second in a month yesterday, days are long hard and early starts. I don’t know how I’m going to do these schedules for 25 more years. I won’t even entertain PMs bc of my friends stories.
I lurk often but never post. It is as bad as you can imagine. I felt compelled to sign into the account to share. I’m a senior FO.
05-24-2023 | 05:53 PM
#58
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 290
Likes: 0
Different perspective: I've had many duty days longer than 11 hours. Most of my duty days are over 10 hours. Most of my overnights are sub-14 hours.
Four legs in a day is very common. Five legs is not terribly uncommon. I see six leg days on occasion. And I have personally flown seven legs in a day at SWA.
Anecdotally, while Champeen may have made more than his AA buddy in his first year at SWA, if an AA pilot and a SWA pilot fly the equivalent number of credit hours during their first year, the AA pilot would make slightly more than the SWA pilot. A SWA pilot would typically answer that by saying something like, "Because we have so much more flexibility at SWA, we can earn more credit hours (work more) than pilots at other airlines." There is an entire rabbit hole of discussion that can ensue from statements like that. I'll spare you, but my experience has been it boils down to: you have to work significantly more at SWA to significantly out-earn OAL pilots. Some people love that about SWA. If that's your "jam" - working more for the next X decades or embracing the suck - then you'll probably love it here.
So, that's the first year. Over the course of the first ten years, though, at current rates, using SWAPA's published earliest available upgrade for AA (three years to a NB) advertised a few months ago on their "Considering a Career at Southwest Airlines?" graphic and SWA's earliest upgrade (not lance) at seven years, the AA pilot will out-earn the SWA pilot by $412K flying an equivalent number of credit hours. I don't know how long it takes to hold WB captain at AA, but that would also pretty dramatically impact career earnings once an AA pilot makes that leap.
And something to consider is what Hoover said:
Don't know how old Champeen is, but that's definitely something to think about. The trips are a grind for many. They have gotten more and more difficult since I arrived here (approximately 20 years ago). Part of that is due to the interaction of the effects of FAR 117 (allows longer block times) combined with the 800-sized aircraft becoming a larger and larger proportion of our fleet (longer boarding/deplaning leading to longer duty days and shorter overnights). Part of it is due to the increased emphasis on the "financialization" (for lack of a better term) of our airline. And part of it is due to getting older.
For the first many years I was at SWA, back when we had longer overnights, I used to be able to go out and drink and party much of the night, get a few hours of sleep, and then go fly what was then a full day (like nine hours or so). No way on Earth can I do that anymore. Age, longer days, and shorter overnights have made it so that I haven't been able to do anything like that for eight or nine years.
Champeen may be in his 20's or 30's. Champeen may have superior genetics. I don't know. But for me, and many folks I've talked to, the trips have become significantly harder to deal with over the years. After a decade or two, they can become a real chore.
Champeen says certain people here on APC are "toxic." Okay. I suppose the pilots who founded ALPA because of the unacceptable working conditions back in the 30's may have also been perceived as "toxic" by some people. I suppose the pilots who have led the fights for and secured better pay and work rules over the decades were thought of as "toxic" by some. That's just the way it goes.
"Discontent is the first step in the progress of a man or nation." -Oscar Wilde
Four legs in a day is very common. Five legs is not terribly uncommon. I see six leg days on occasion. And I have personally flown seven legs in a day at SWA.
Anecdotally, while Champeen may have made more than his AA buddy in his first year at SWA, if an AA pilot and a SWA pilot fly the equivalent number of credit hours during their first year, the AA pilot would make slightly more than the SWA pilot. A SWA pilot would typically answer that by saying something like, "Because we have so much more flexibility at SWA, we can earn more credit hours (work more) than pilots at other airlines." There is an entire rabbit hole of discussion that can ensue from statements like that. I'll spare you, but my experience has been it boils down to: you have to work significantly more at SWA to significantly out-earn OAL pilots. Some people love that about SWA. If that's your "jam" - working more for the next X decades or embracing the suck - then you'll probably love it here.
So, that's the first year. Over the course of the first ten years, though, at current rates, using SWAPA's published earliest available upgrade for AA (three years to a NB) advertised a few months ago on their "Considering a Career at Southwest Airlines?" graphic and SWA's earliest upgrade (not lance) at seven years, the AA pilot will out-earn the SWA pilot by $412K flying an equivalent number of credit hours. I don't know how long it takes to hold WB captain at AA, but that would also pretty dramatically impact career earnings once an AA pilot makes that leap.
And something to consider is what Hoover said:
Don't know how old Champeen is, but that's definitely something to think about. The trips are a grind for many. They have gotten more and more difficult since I arrived here (approximately 20 years ago). Part of that is due to the interaction of the effects of FAR 117 (allows longer block times) combined with the 800-sized aircraft becoming a larger and larger proportion of our fleet (longer boarding/deplaning leading to longer duty days and shorter overnights). Part of it is due to the increased emphasis on the "financialization" (for lack of a better term) of our airline. And part of it is due to getting older.
For the first many years I was at SWA, back when we had longer overnights, I used to be able to go out and drink and party much of the night, get a few hours of sleep, and then go fly what was then a full day (like nine hours or so). No way on Earth can I do that anymore. Age, longer days, and shorter overnights have made it so that I haven't been able to do anything like that for eight or nine years.
Champeen may be in his 20's or 30's. Champeen may have superior genetics. I don't know. But for me, and many folks I've talked to, the trips have become significantly harder to deal with over the years. After a decade or two, they can become a real chore.
Champeen says certain people here on APC are "toxic." Okay. I suppose the pilots who founded ALPA because of the unacceptable working conditions back in the 30's may have also been perceived as "toxic" by some people. I suppose the pilots who have led the fights for and secured better pay and work rules over the decades were thought of as "toxic" by some. That's just the way it goes.
"Discontent is the first step in the progress of a man or nation." -Oscar Wilde
After a little over a year Ive found that I like to do about 100 credit a month. That has me working around 14 days. I very rarely ever pickup anything and if a do its a local. I bid around or Elitt out of anything that has more than one day of 4 legs, or anything with multiple days of longer duty I stay away from.
I fly AMs because every time i've been on a PM trip it gets delayed and I get in super late. That part sucks. PMs suck. I don't enjoy getting up at 0400, but if I do i'm usually done by 1300 or so and relax the rest of the day.
My whole point being is that you can make it work for you if you want. If you want to fly one 7 hour leg and be done for the day then dont come here. If you want to work less days a month but still make good money than you can do that here.
I voted yes on the SAV because we need a much better contract with higher pay rates and better disability. The list is long. But your attitude has a lot to do with how much you enjoy work. There's lots of things that are frustrating about our operation. But AA has all of those things and more. And all of their guys are super grumpy.
Most of the people here are really cool and chill and roll with the flow even when the operation is sucking. Not something you get elsewhere.
The OP asked if SWA is really as bad as it seems reading this forum. My answer is no. But I do understand that its not as cushy as it has been in the past for a lot of folks. I get that. But its still a really good job that I enjoy and is way better than the regional I came from.
05-24-2023 | 06:38 PM
#59
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,656
Likes: 302
Agree with the AM’s too early thing. It’s one thing to be a morning person. Our am’s require something pretty far beyond being a “morning person.”
Mark Walhlberg, for example, is known for his “extreme” routine of getting up a 2:30 am to pray, then work out.
David Goggins, who is billed by some as “The World’s Toughest Man” put out a video of himself out running in the dark at 3:30 am asking where all the billionaires were on the empty streets.
Most am’s seem to report between 4 and 5 am. I’ve always used a two hour before rule on am’s for when I need to get up. That means am’s require me to get up between 2 and 3 am. That’s for an originator. If I overnight in a city in a time zone ahead of me, that am wake-up is then even earlier in terms of body clock time.
Even if you reduce the time down to an hour before report to wake up, do all your morning prep and get to the airport, you’re still getting up between 3 and 4 am. Unless you live right next to the airport, that’s pretty hard to do.
Then, when not on a trip, do you keep getting up between 2 and 4 am to maintain your schedule and circadian rhythms? Or do you back to being a more normal morning person, getting up at 5 or 6 am and then having to reset again in three or four days when you go back on a trip?
Mark Walhlberg, for example, is known for his “extreme” routine of getting up a 2:30 am to pray, then work out.
David Goggins, who is billed by some as “The World’s Toughest Man” put out a video of himself out running in the dark at 3:30 am asking where all the billionaires were on the empty streets.
Most am’s seem to report between 4 and 5 am. I’ve always used a two hour before rule on am’s for when I need to get up. That means am’s require me to get up between 2 and 3 am. That’s for an originator. If I overnight in a city in a time zone ahead of me, that am wake-up is then even earlier in terms of body clock time.
Even if you reduce the time down to an hour before report to wake up, do all your morning prep and get to the airport, you’re still getting up between 3 and 4 am. Unless you live right next to the airport, that’s pretty hard to do.
Then, when not on a trip, do you keep getting up between 2 and 4 am to maintain your schedule and circadian rhythms? Or do you back to being a more normal morning person, getting up at 5 or 6 am and then having to reset again in three or four days when you go back on a trip?
2 hrs before? WTF do you need to do in the morning? I set an alarm for :45 min before van on the rare occasion I have to do an AM. Shower and shave the night before, have everything mostly packed up before going to bed. Hit snooze, get up, brush teeth, throw on deodorant, finish packing and out the door. I'm with RJ....you're doing something wrong. At 20+ yrs here you should be able to do banker's hours trips with 2-3 legs a day max....or your base is awful.
05-24-2023 | 06:50 PM
#60
At your mom's house
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,675
Likes: 449
From: cpt 737
2 hrs before? WTF do you need to do in the morning? I set an alarm for :45 min before van on the rare occasion I have to do an AM. Shower and shave the night before, have everything mostly packed up before going to bed. Hit snooze, get up, brush teeth, throw on deodorant, finish packing and out the door. I'm with RJ....you're doing something wrong. At 20+ yrs here you should be able to do banker's hours trips with 2-3 legs a day max....or your base is awful.
you know what I'm talking about.
regardless I think we can all agree the shoulder flying is out of hand. There is not enough decent show times for AM nor finish for PM, although you'll be hrs late on a PM anyways.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
