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Originally Posted by Stitches
(Post 2362672)
Swa pilot here. Six months before our new contract was signed we saw a dramatic shift in managements tactics and attempts to communicate directly with us. These are things that are not necessary to come to a fair and equitable agreement in line with market rates. When you start seeing things like low post count statements from obvious management personnel and lawsuits, you should know that you've already won.
It's only a matter of time before management realizes this. They have run out of airspeed & altitude & now ideas. The lawsuit is proof of this. The process they are going through is very much like a death/grieving process. Shock, denial, sadness, and finally acceptance are all part of the realization that the fair market rate for pilot wages has changed dramatically in your favor. IMO your CEO is in the shock/denial phase. Blaming cancellations solely on the pilots will only work for a short while, probably not through the summer, definitely not forever. Take a deep breath, relax, and be patient. Battling the forces of supply and demand is like swimming against the current. It doesn't matter how hard or fast you paddle, you're going downstream eventually. you guys just need to hang on and let the market do the work for you. |
Originally Posted by an225flyer
(Post 2362620)
I agree with most all of this..especially the last sentence. You are 100% correct..they just have not accepted yet that industry standard is a must..to be honest I am not sure they will accept it before it is too late.
I have been around this industry for a lot of years. I have seen both sides of the table. As long as a pilot group is harassing its own members and making threats the company will never in a million years accept industry standard as the way to go trust me on this..they will just sit back and watch while the pilot group digs their own grave.. if you want the company to accept the pay you want(ie industry standard or even industry leading) then you will have to show them that you deserve it. this could be in many forms..this could mean proving to your company you have a vested interest in the future success of the company by offering something in return for the compensation you so desperately want like PBS for example (huge savings to the company). This is how you negotiate. It is unreasonable to expect a company to, for the 1st time ever in its history, give industry standard anything solely because "it has been 8 years without it so we deserve it". I can promise you that if both sides are negotiating truly in good faith then you will get the best contract you have ever had and all the other problems will resolve on their own I have seen it a hundred times. This is what we are really all after isnt it? we have to protect this profession for the future but we have to be smart about it. Sat on both sides of the table huh? I would NEVER sit on the side representing corporate greed. How does it feel to try to lower pay for working people so Wall Street and the Board can get fatter bonuses? I'd need therapy after that. I'm with B6 so you can keep me out of your lawsuit. |
Originally Posted by Stitches
(Post 2362672)
Swa pilot here. Six months before our new contract was signed we saw a dramatic shift in managements tactics and attempts to communicate directly with us. These are things that are not necessary to come to a fair and equitable agreement in line with market rates. When you start seeing things like low post count statements from obvious management personnel and lawsuits, you should know that you've already won.
It's only a matter of time before management realizes this. They have run out of airspeed & altitude & now ideas. The lawsuit is proof of this. The process they are going through is very much like a death/grieving process. Shock, denial, sadness, and finally acceptance are all part of the realization that the fair market rate for pilot wages has changed dramatically in your favor. IMO your CEO is in the shock/denial phase. Blaming cancellations solely on the pilots will only work for a short while, probably not through the summer, definitely not forever. Take a deep breath, relax, and be patient. Battling the forces of supply and demand is like swimming against the current. It doesn't matter how hard or fast you paddle, you're going downstream eventually. you guys just need to hang on and let the market do the work for you. |
Originally Posted by an225flyer
(Post 2362591)
To all the "furious" Spirit pilots out there who think the judge and the company want you to fly "broken airplanes" or "fly sick or fatigued":
I think what the lawsuit and court order was really about was the illegal job action set in motion by a small group of your pilots. before you start denying this blindly allow me to explain. It is my understanding (correct me if I am wrong) that one or more Spirit crew members have created a public list of names and contact information identifying everyone who has picked up open time and "helped" the company?! Is this really true!? (this is the illegal job action to which I was referring) Now I am sure you all realize this is considered an illegal job action..if this really did happen then I am also sure you all are aware that anyone who used that information to call and harass another crew member is now a participant in that same illegal job action and is in direct violation of the railway labor act and federal law. It is getting old reading posts from pilot after pilot who thinks they did nothing wrong and is just another victim of their companies accusations when in fact it was clearly the company who was the victim in this case. Here are the facts: Your pilots intentionally slowed down the airline, got caught, got a lawsuit, and are now saying you did nothing wrong.. My point is simple: Please guys, please, for the sake of all pilots everywhere, STOP MAKING US ALL LOOK BAD! Yeah, I will just repeat myself again: "But the problem is it will be the company decision if it is a "concerted effort ". This is the same company that started the injunction after failing to adequately the staff transition period ( LAS reserve grid days were green with minus 6 coverage), forgive me but without an independent arbitrator monitoring the company against pressuring the pilots into flying BWF (Broken aircraft While Fatigued) I am not happy."
Originally Posted by an225flyer
(Post 2362591)
I can promise you that if both sides are negotiating truly in good faith then you will get the best contract you have ever had and all the other problems will resolve on their own I have seen it a hundred times. This is what we are really all after isnt it? we have to protect this profession for the future but we have to be smart about it.
I feel a distinct lack of good faith from the opposite side of the table and while I don't agree with publishing names of people working on their scheduled days off, I definitely don't need some yoyo who has sat at both side of the table but does not work for Spirit commenting on how I should feel. |
Originally Posted by an225flyer
(Post 2362591)
To all the "furious" Spirit pilots out there who think the judge and the company want you to fly "broken airplanes" or "fly sick or fatigued":
I think what the lawsuit and court order was really about was the illegal job action set in motion by a small group of your pilots. before you start denying this blindly allow me to explain. It is my understanding (correct me if I am wrong) that one or more Spirit crew members have created a public list of names and contact information identifying everyone who has picked up open time and "helped" the company?! Is this really true!? (this is the illegal job action to which I was referring) Now I am sure you all realize this is considered an illegal job action..if this really did happen then I am also sure you all are aware that anyone who used that information to call and harass another crew member is now a participant in that same illegal job action and is in direct violation of the railway labor act and federal law. It is getting old reading posts from pilot after pilot who thinks they did nothing wrong and is just another victim of their companies accusations when in fact it was clearly the company who was the victim in this case. Here are the facts: Your pilots intentionally slowed down the airline, got caught, got a lawsuit, and are now saying you did nothing wrong.. My point is simple: Please guys, please, for the sake of all pilots everywhere, STOP MAKING US ALL LOOK BAD! You guys stick out like LEO's on the airplane. |
Originally Posted by symbian simian
(Post 2362729)
Yeah, I will just repeat myself again: "But the problem is it will be the company decision if it is a "concerted effort ". This is the same company that started the injunction after failing to adequately the staff transition period ( LAS reserve grid days were green with minus 6 coverage), forgive me but without an independent arbitrator monitoring the company against pressuring the pilots into flying BWF (Broken aircraft While Fatigued) I am not happy."
2 years ago during our regular scheduled summer meltdown our union agreed to waive contract protections to help avert a total shutdown with the promise of John Bendoraitis (*Chief Operating Officer), we would get some quid pro quo, understood by most to mean for the next contract. Management proceeded pretend to want limited sections opened for quick contract renewal. After a year of theis the union finally realized wath was going on and now we are in mediated sessions. Last month that same COO didn't show for scheduled negotiations because "jury duty". I feel a distinct lack of good faith from the opposite side of the table and while I don't agree with publishing names of people working on their scheduled days off, I definitely don't need some yoyo who has sat at both side of the table but does not work for Spirit commenting on how I should feel. There are many ways a person can serve their fellow pilots and I have done just that. I have done more for my peers on both sides of the table than you can possibly imagine. You can only do so much for a cause when you limit yourself to one side or the other..it is this adversarial relationship that got Spirit into this mess in the 1st place. I am in no way saying it was the pilots fault or the companies fault..both share equal responsibility and it will be a team effort if progress is to be made. If all you Spirit pilots out there want to continue sticking it to the company that's fine go right ahead just don't be angry when they turn around and file a court order for you to stop. and lastly I am not trying to tell you how you should feel..I am not forcing you to read my posts you are welcome to move on you will not hurt my feelings. I am just a fellow pilot who has been reading APC blogs for years and saw a group in trouble. I have been in this industry longer than most of you have been alive so I am just here to give my opinion. My hope is to provide a different point of view but make no mistake my end game is the same as yours my friend. You are the future of this industry I only ask you learn a little from the past rather than repeating it. You may not like what I have to say it may not be what you want to hear but it is the reality. |
Originally Posted by an225flyer
(Post 2362591)
To all the "furious" Spirit pilots out there who think the judge and the company want you to fly "broken airplanes" or "fly sick or fatigued":
I think what the lawsuit and court order was really about was the illegal job action set in motion by a small group of your pilots. before you start denying this blindly allow me to explain. It is my understanding (correct me if I am wrong) that one or more Spirit crew members have created a public list of names and contact information identifying everyone who has picked up open time and "helped" the company?! Is this really true!? (this is the illegal job action to which I was referring) Now I am sure you all realize this is considered an illegal job action..if this really did happen then I am also sure you all are aware that anyone who used that information to call and harass another crew member is now a participant in that same illegal job action and is in direct violation of the railway labor act and federal law. It is getting old reading posts from pilot after pilot who thinks they did nothing wrong and is just another victim of their companies accusations when in fact it was clearly the company who was the victim in this case. Here are the facts: Your pilots intentionally slowed down the airline, got caught, got a lawsuit, and are now saying you did nothing wrong.. My point is simple: Please guys, please, for the sake of all pilots everywhere, STOP MAKING US ALL LOOK BAD! The party is over for greedy inept executives. They can pay the going rate for pilots or shrink to nothing. Management chose to red line. And now they are suffering the consequences of those choices. Just like you learned in kindergarten. |
Another to the ignore list. Please stop quoting the low post count trolls....
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Originally Posted by Stitches
(Post 2362672)
Swa pilot here. Six months before our new contract was signed we saw a dramatic shift in managements tactics and attempts to communicate directly with us. These are things that are not necessary to come to a fair and equitable agreement in line with market rates. When you start seeing things like low post count statements from obvious management personnel and lawsuits, you should know that you've already won.
It's only a matter of time before management realizes this. They have run out of airspeed & altitude & now ideas. The lawsuit is proof of this. The process they are going through is very much like a death/grieving process. Shock, denial, sadness, and finally acceptance are all part of the realization that the fair market rate for pilot wages has changed dramatically in your favor. IMO your CEO is in the shock/denial phase. Blaming cancellations solely on the pilots will only work for a short while, probably not through the summer, definitely not forever. Take a deep breath, relax, and be patient. Battling the forces of supply and demand is like swimming against the current. It doesn't matter how hard or fast you paddle, you're going downstream eventually. you guys just need to hang on and let the market do the work for you. I agree 100%. Same scenario here at Delta. Hang tough, you will achieve a great contract. |
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