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Originally Posted by Dukeuno
(Post 2428105)
It was sent only to the pilots, now it could get leaked to the other groups.
It should be no secret that we make much more than the other work groups. That is no excuse to make less than industry standard for a pilot. The doctor that delivers my kids probably makes $600k/yr and the nurse $70k. He doesn't have to justify to her why he's not willing to work for $450k. |
I support my MEC and NC. Two years of delay tactics and disingenuous negotiations for that. Disappointing. The unlimited no-refusal reassignments is something that needs to be shouted from the rooftops.
I did like the nugget about how he tried to get a deal done before amendable date. lol. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro |
Did you guys get your full Crew Brief from the negotiating team yet? Hopefully it will shed some light on the last scheduled day of mediation.
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Originally Posted by FreeSmiles
(Post 2427870)
So... Give up what work rules we have for still substandard pay. No thanks. I'll walk. Don't fall for it and don't negotiate in public. I support my NC.
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Originally Posted by Qotsaautopilot
(Post 2427932)
You can have $500/hr and a 50% DC retirement and it's not going to matter if you medical out. I don't care how healthy you think your are, you are 6mo-1yr from losing your medical.
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Originally Posted by Qotsaautopilot
(Post 2428116)
I don't have to justify to the other work groups why that offer was garbage just like Bendo doesn't have to justify his compensation to us.
It should be no secret that we make much more than the other work groups. That is no excuse to make less than industry standard for a pilot. The doctor that delivers my kids probably makes $600k/yr and the nurse $70k. He doesn't have to justify to her why he's not willing to work for $450k. Oh it's not absurd or unreasonable at all that people are saying they won't agree to $500/hr with 50% DC if pbs or no changes to LTD is involved. Jeeesh, I wonder if anyone would underwrite a private LTD plan now that you can spend that extra 300K/yr you'll be making for premiums. |
Feng, it's obsurd that your still here. Just about everyone you talk to says go away. Have you not gotten the hint yet?
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk |
Originally Posted by Feng
(Post 2428192)
What if it was an ultra low cost obgyn / hospital that charges less for delivery and pre delivery services by providing a no frills / no pamper accommodations along with lower labor cost? The doctor signed on initially and agreed to work for 30-60% less than doctors at traditional practices, and all of a sudden demand to be paid like traditional practices even though the business model is not setup to have the same revenue as a traditional operation? Perhaps he/she should quit and find employment in a traditional office.
Oh it's not absurd or unreasonable at all that people are saying they won't agree to $500/hr with 50% DC if pbs or no changes to LTD is involved. Jeeesh, I wonder if anyone would underwrite a private LTD plan now that you can spend that extra 300K/yr you'll be making for premiums. |
Originally Posted by 3inthegreen
(Post 2428226)
I see your point, but giving up all of our work rules for Allegiant rates will never happen. And the one thing you fail to mention in your example.......there is an industry changing Doctor shortage looming on the horizon. Regional Airlines'a upper management teams use to be as arrogant and ignorant as the ULCC teams are. It won't be long before Spirit will be needing to do phone interviews and offer signing bonus just to get pilots to come work for these crappy rates. This whole attitude of "We don't need to be competitive to attract quality ATP licensed pilots........it's our business model.......go to someplace better if you want to be paid better."....this attitude will absolutely destroy the airline over the course of time. Good luck telling the board why we had to park brand new airplanes in long term storage because we don't have enough pilots to fly them. Spirit is a money tree and the NK management team is going to kill it because they wanted to save money on the water by watering it only once a week.
Feng, where your analogy falls apart is that we DO make as much money as everyone else. Percentagewise we make more money. We make less money overall, but we are a smaller company overall. They absolutely have the ability to pay us and still be wildly profitable. And when I signed on we were not the lowest paid air bus drivers. For a little while we were one of the highest. |
Originally Posted by Feng
(Post 2428192)
What if it was an ultra low cost obgyn / hospital that charges less for delivery and pre delivery services by providing a no frills / no pamper accommodations along with lower labor cost? The doctor signed on initially and agreed to work for 30-60% less than doctors at traditional practices, and all of a sudden demand to be paid like traditional practices even though the business model is not setup to have the same revenue as a traditional operation? Perhaps he/she should quit and find employment in a traditional office.
Oh it's not absurd or unreasonable at all that people are saying they won't agree to $500/hr with 50% DC if pbs or no changes to LTD is involved. Jeeesh, I wonder if anyone would underwrite a private LTD plan now that you can spend that extra 300K/yr you'll be making for premiums. But like all things, in the long-run, you cannot escape market forces for any business input--Econ 101 always wins in the end (for any limited resource). Even if the 1500 hour rule and age 67 were passed (I hope to god they don't), I firmly believe airlines would still eventually be forced to pay up for pilots--just 5 years or so later. It's a simple long-term market adjustment to the cost and time-investments of training vs. the career outlook/cost/time-investment in other fields, and also a declining millenial-cultural interest in operating machinery with their hands versus building/designing it on a screen. If your management team reached the expiration of a commodities contract for fuel, and then refused to pay the prevailing (higher) market rate for fuel in the future, fuel suppliers would very quickly stop supplying you with fuel. They'll eventually be forced with the same dilemma if they do not pay you market rate, whether by force from the NMB, or by the force of your feet leaving for greener pastures. None of the above is emotional or irrational at all--these are not opinions--these are all simple, cynical statements about how the world of business operates in modern capitalist societies. Businesses that cannot generate sustainable profits when paying the prevailing market rate for all costs of doing business--fuel, parts, mechanics, pilots, etc.--are a drag on the US economy and stock markets and they will be eliminated from the sector in the long-run. I have a lot of buddies over at Spirit and I'm highly confident your management team can afford to pay you market rate and thrive. I believe the same thing for our group here at B6. |
Originally Posted by Feng
(Post 2428192)
What if it was an ultra low cost obgyn / hospital that charges less for delivery and pre delivery services by providing a no frills / no pamper accommodations along with lower labor cost? The doctor signed on initially and agreed to work for 30-60% less than doctors at traditional practices, and all of a sudden demand to be paid like traditional practices even though the business model is not setup to have the same revenue as a traditional operation? Perhaps he/she should quit and find employment in a traditional office.
Oh it's not absurd or unreasonable at all that people are saying they won't agree to $500/hr with 50% DC if pbs or no changes to LTD is involved. Jeeesh, I wonder if anyone would underwrite a private LTD plan now that you can spend that extra 300K/yr you'll be making for premiums. One of my best friends is a dermatologist, and he was appalled and shocked when I told him I could make 2x the money flying corporate, with more time off--he was shocked that I would ever work even a single day more for anything less than top-dollar per hour served, regardless of any changes to job security or QOL. Doctors are 1000x more cynical and cut-throat about getting their money and seeking the highest rate possible per service rendered--maybe that's why their profession has maintained its prestige and high wages/benefits over time (I'm speaking of specialists--not primary care docs). |
Originally Posted by flapshalfspeed
(Post 2428245)
Airlines pay the market rate for fuel, real estate, parts, etc.. They got away with paying below market-rate for pilots for a very long time, because we just went through the worst two decades of aviation employment in US history, all while printing out 250 hr zero-to-heroes that whole time. Labor supply was basically unlimited, so airlines got away with paying bottom dollar.
But like all things, in the long-run, you cannot escape market forces for any business input--Econ 101 always wins in the end (for any limited resource). Even if the 1500 hour rule and age 67 were passed (I hope to god they don't), I firmly believe airlines would still eventually be forced to pay up for pilots--just 5 years or so later. It's a simple long-term market adjustment to the cost and time-investments of training vs. the career outlook/cost/time-investment in other fields, and also a declining millenial-cultural interest in operating machinery with their hands versus building/designing it on a screen. If your management team reached the expiration of a commodities contract for fuel, and then refused to pay the prevailing (higher) market rate for fuel in the future, fuel suppliers would very quickly stop supplying you with fuel. They'll eventually be forced with the same dilemma if they do not pay you market rate, whether by force from the NMB, or by the force of your feet leaving for greener pastures. None of the above is emotional or irrational at all--these are not opinions--these are all simple, cynical statements about how the world of business operates in modern capitalist societies. Businesses that cannot generate sustainable profits when paying the prevailing market rate for all costs of doing business--fuel, parts, mechanics, pilots, etc.--are a drag on the US economy and stock markets and they will be eliminated from the sector in the long-run. I have a lot of buddies over at Spirit and I'm highly confident your management team can afford to pay you market rate and thrive. I believe the same thing for our group here at B6. Yup and the B6 guys will be there for you. Good luck guys, do they make wings with double battle stars? |
Hey feng!
Everyone's got you figured out. You should be more creative when picking a user name. The Financial Executives Networking Group now go away! 100% :D |
If you all insist on engaging the troll feng please stop quoting it in your responses. Put it on ignore like I did. I don't care what the troll says and would prefer not to read it.
Thanks all. |
Originally Posted by beech_nut
(Post 2428281)
If you all insist on engaging the troll feng please stop quoting it in your responses. Put it on ignore like I did. I don't care what the troll says and would prefer not to read it.
Thanks all. |
I did ignore, but unblocked him cause it's kind of like watching a train wreck. I just can't look away. But I did stop using the respond button and quoting him!
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk |
Originally Posted by Squeaky banana
(Post 2428290)
I did ignore, but unblocked him cause it's kind of like watching a train wreck. I just can't look away. But I did stop using the respond button and quoting him!
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk Scheduling Que is 54 deep, SMH |
Haha... Doesn't surprise me. I'm on a long efficient 40 hour layover... Glad I'm not dealing with it right now...
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk |
Originally Posted by Chimpy
(Post 2428292)
Speaking of Trainwreck, This place is once again falling apart. Numerous computer/system issues today.
Scheduling Que is 54 deep, SMH Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk |
Originally Posted by flapshalfspeed
(Post 2428245)
Airlines pay the market rate for fuel, real estate, parts, etc.. They got away with paying below market-rate for pilots for a very long time, because we just went through the worst two decades of aviation employment in US history, all while printing out 250 hr zero-to-heroes that whole time. Labor supply was basically unlimited, so airlines got away with paying bottom dollar.
But like all things, in the long-run, you cannot escape market forces for any business input--Econ 101 always wins in the end (for any limited resource). Even if the 1500 hour rule and age 67 were passed (I hope to god they don't), I firmly believe airlines would still eventually be forced to pay up for pilots--just 5 years or so later. It's a simple long-term market adjustment to the cost and time-investments of training vs. the career outlook/cost/time-investment in other fields, and also a declining millenial-cultural interest in operating machinery with their hands versus building/designing it on a screen. If your management team reached the expiration of a commodities contract for fuel, and then refused to pay the prevailing (higher) market rate for fuel in the future, fuel suppliers would very quickly stop supplying you with fuel. They'll eventually be forced with the same dilemma if they do not pay you market rate, whether by force from the NMB, or by the force of your feet leaving for greener pastures. None of the above is emotional or irrational at all--these are not opinions--these are all simple, cynical statements about how the world of business operates in modern capitalist societies. Businesses that cannot generate sustainable profits when paying the prevailing market rate for all costs of doing business--fuel, parts, mechanics, pilots, etc.--are a drag on the US economy and stock markets and they will be eliminated from the sector in the long-run. I have a lot of buddies over at Spirit and I'm highly confident your management team can afford to pay you market rate and thrive. I believe the same thing for our group here at B6. Great post! |
No pilots=no airline. Seems like a simple concept, keep your pivotal driving workforce happy and productive....I imagine with SWA and DAL in-house job fairs coming up, this place will hemorrhage pilots. Here's hoping I'm one of them :D Spirit management sent us a simple message guys: That proposal is what they feel we deserve, unless the operation is disrupted due to staffing, they will never give us a fair and equitable deal. They don't see us as worth anything more...That's the message I got at least from Bendo. :rolleyes:
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Originally Posted by Chimpy
(Post 2428292)
Speaking of Trainwreck, This place is once again falling apart. Numerous computer/system issues today.
Scheduling Que is 54 deep, SMH |
I'm familiar with scope Vis a vis majors and regionals, but what is scope in relation to an ULCC that flies one ac type and doesn't outsource?
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Originally Posted by spaaks
(Post 2428378)
I'm familiar with scope Vis a vis majors and regionals, but what is scope in relation to an ULCC that flies one ac type and doesn't currently outsource?
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mgmt was trying to allow them to outsource spirit flying on rj's or the like? or are they trying to outsource widebodies?
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Originally Posted by dfwflyboy
(Post 2428332)
No pilots=no airline. Seems like a simple concept, keep your pivotal driving workforce happy and productive....I imagine with SWA and DAL in-house job fairs coming up, this place will hemorrhage pilots. Here's hoping I'm one of them :D Spirit management sent us a simple message guys: That proposal is what they feel we deserve, unless the operation is disrupted due to staffing, they will never give us a fair and equitable deal. They don't see us as worth anything more...That's the message I got at least from Bendo. :rolleyes:
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By the way, that is the new face for SPA ALPA PILOTS
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Originally Posted by dfwflyboy
(Post 2428332)
No pilots=no airline. Seems like a simple concept, keep your pivotal driving workforce happy and productive....I imagine with SWA and DAL in-house job fairs coming up, this place will hemorrhage pilots. Here's hoping I'm one of them :D Spirit management sent us a simple message guys: That proposal is what they feel we deserve, unless the operation is disrupted due to staffing, they will never give us a fair and equitable deal. They don't see us as worth anything more...That's the message I got at least from Bendo. :rolleyes:
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less than 40 pilots "opted in from GoJet" this should hopefully be a message for management
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Talk to the Transtates guys that work here. They have very strong opinions of Gojet. :mad:
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Originally Posted by spaaks
(Post 2428391)
mgmt was trying to allow them to outsource spirit flying on rj's or the like? or are they trying to outsource widebodies?
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Originally Posted by Super EZ E
(Post 2428410)
Talk to the Transtates guys that work here. They have very strong opinions of Gojet. :mad:
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Originally Posted by spaaks
(Post 2428378)
I'm familiar with scope Vis a vis majors and regionals, but what is scope in relation to an ULCC that flies one ac type and doesn't outsource?
Jetblue codeshares with Hawaiian, Lufthansa, Emerites, cape air, and more. They probably have 30% more pilots, seniority, and widebodies if it weren't for unlimited codeshare. The southwest pilots understand scope. Very very restrictive. Simply put, if it's a ticket sold by and revenue generated by spirit airlines or a holding company it needs to be done on a spirit airplane with a spirit ALPA pilot. You have nothing but words and numbers on paper if scope isn't solid. Scope also dictate what happens to the pilots in the event of a sale, aquistion, or merger. |
Originally Posted by underpaidpic
(Post 2428408)
less than 40 pilots "opted in from GoJet" this should hopefully be a message for management
Can you share a source?? |
Originally Posted by AllOva736
(Post 2428425)
This is very true, not just because of the past with TSA and Gojet but the people they have been hiring. I know first hand that gojet had guys in training that took 3 sims ( 6 hours ) just to get off of the gate in the sim and by that point at Spirit you are doing V1 cuts in BOG. That's the one thing I like about the training at NK, it is junk but weak pilots don't make it through so we have a good mix of capable people on the line.
Lol. Let me tell ya about some of the train wrecks I've flown with recently. |
Don't be so upset, the national mediation board will release us in a few years.....hang in there........the next decade should be marginally better.....in the mean time, call or write the white house and ask the president to replace the national mediation board. as long as the anti labor obama appointees are in there we won't see a release for years. what we really need is some HOPE AND CHANGE....
Call the President PHONE NUMBER Comments: 202-456-1111 The White House 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW Washington, DC 20500 https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C5TpfMKUcAAW2wM.jpg |
Hahahahaha!!!
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Originally Posted by dfwflyboy
(Post 2428332)
No pilots=no airline. Seems like a simple concept, keep your pivotal driving workforce happy and productive....I imagine with SWA and DAL in-house job fairs coming up, this place will hemorrhage pilots. Here's hoping I'm one of them :D Spirit management sent us a simple message guys: That proposal is what they feel we deserve, unless the operation is disrupted due to staffing, they will never give us a fair and equitable deal. They don't see us as worth anything more...That's the message I got at least from Bendo. :rolleyes:
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Originally Posted by SourGrapes
(Post 2428482)
Don't be so upset, the national mediation board will release us in a few years.....hang in there........the next decade should be marginally better.....in the mean time, call or write the white house and ask the president to replace the national mediation board. as long as the anti labor obama appointees are in there we won't see a release for years. what we really need is some HOPE AND CHANGE....
Call the President PHONE NUMBER Comments: 202-456-1111 The White House 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW Washington, DC 20500 Trump eyes union-buster for NLRB - POLITICO |
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