Our Washout rate is now over 8%
11-05-2017 | 08:15 PM
#22
Line Holder
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 1,588
Likes: 4
From: MD-88 FO
Thanks for the update. And now 25% of your class has no options outside of Spirit because they have a 121 pink slip. And that 135 guy who probably shouldn’t have been hired in the first place because he’s used to going to training as a customer, now probably doesn’t have a job to go back to. I have no idea why people keep showing up to this place with the training risks involved.
11-06-2017 | 03:39 AM
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,390
Likes: 1
From: Airplane
I personally know a guy who failed his type ride twice, was released by the company and has now finished his probationary period at FedEx.
Just like everything else, it’s just one factor in many. During his FedEx interview, he owned up to it, said it was ALL his fault, didn’t try to lay blame on the system, the training, the instructors, etc; and was able to turn it into a positive experience by what he learned and how it actually made him a better aviator.
A 121 failure isn’t a good thing, but it’s not the end of the world or your 121 career.
Just like everything else, it’s just one factor in many. During his FedEx interview, he owned up to it, said it was ALL his fault, didn’t try to lay blame on the system, the training, the instructors, etc; and was able to turn it into a positive experience by what he learned and how it actually made him a better aviator.
A 121 failure isn’t a good thing, but it’s not the end of the world or your 121 career.
11-06-2017 | 04:29 AM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 550
Likes: 0
From: A320 CA
The airbus while popular around the world is very different for pilots that have not flown it before and explaining how it works should be taught a certain way. If the standard isn't working, sure the instructor should be able to adapt to help the student but there must be a standard to start. Right now it's "go teach them hydraulics for 2hrs any way you want"
I'm not going to defend the newhire program; it's deserving of all the criticism being laid upon it on here and elsewhere. But the reality is you're going to get CBT training on your own at most places now. At least they pay you for the trouble, though, as NK expects people to show up having done it for free.
The only systems unique and deserving of one-on-one instruction are automation, flight laws and maybe the ECAM system. Everything else is much like the last 2-3 airplanes you're typed in.
Of course, the program assumes you've been around 2-3 types of Part 25 jets, hence the problem. Regionals teach Jet Basic 101, no one else does.
11-06-2017 | 07:41 AM
#26
Line Holder
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 83
Likes: 0
Blaming the training department for failures is rationalizing the fact that we are hiring lesser qualified pilots and this is the result.
Guys busting orals in greater numbers than before? 5 years ago there wasn't a nice oral study guide, now there is. So how is training for the oral gotten worse? The majority of our APDs are the same APDs over the last 5 years, asking the same oral questions, and guys failing more than ever before. Guys are getting a much longer leash in training than they did 5 years ago, some allowed to redo the entire ground school. Never would you see that 5 years ago, but they need bodies, so they keep "sending them up" until they can pass.
Its been said time and time again, this is not a training program that is designed for low time pilots with little to no experience in 121, crew environment, fast paced training, high stress, jet systems.
When 25% of a class fails their check ride, this isn't the fault of instructors, its the fact that the training system is and always has been a fast paced rush job and it is glaringly obvious this doesn't work any longer.
Ill be honest, I couldn't care less that guys are failing. Its not like they made the training program harder, its easier than before. Let guys fail and leave, show the company that pilots are not as easy to attract as hanging a "Now Hiring" sign in the window down in Miramar.
Until the company decides to pay the pilots, guys will continue to fail because $38 will only get you so much in todays market. So let them fail, sounds cold, but its our only leverage we have now, the school house. Failing a training program isn't the death punch it was before and many of these failures can easily go back to a regional and make more money. While there, they can build up some more experience that they may have lacked at 2200TT when they applied here.
Guys busting orals in greater numbers than before? 5 years ago there wasn't a nice oral study guide, now there is. So how is training for the oral gotten worse? The majority of our APDs are the same APDs over the last 5 years, asking the same oral questions, and guys failing more than ever before. Guys are getting a much longer leash in training than they did 5 years ago, some allowed to redo the entire ground school. Never would you see that 5 years ago, but they need bodies, so they keep "sending them up" until they can pass.
Its been said time and time again, this is not a training program that is designed for low time pilots with little to no experience in 121, crew environment, fast paced training, high stress, jet systems.
When 25% of a class fails their check ride, this isn't the fault of instructors, its the fact that the training system is and always has been a fast paced rush job and it is glaringly obvious this doesn't work any longer.
Ill be honest, I couldn't care less that guys are failing. Its not like they made the training program harder, its easier than before. Let guys fail and leave, show the company that pilots are not as easy to attract as hanging a "Now Hiring" sign in the window down in Miramar.
Until the company decides to pay the pilots, guys will continue to fail because $38 will only get you so much in todays market. So let them fail, sounds cold, but its our only leverage we have now, the school house. Failing a training program isn't the death punch it was before and many of these failures can easily go back to a regional and make more money. While there, they can build up some more experience that they may have lacked at 2200TT when they applied here.
11-06-2017 | 07:48 AM
#27
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,603
Likes: 0
So how does the hydraulic system differ so greatly in the 320 from other Part 25 aircraft out there?
I'm not going to defend the newhire program; it's deserving of all the criticism being laid upon it on here and elsewhere. But the reality is you're going to get CBT training on your own at most places now. At least they pay you for the trouble, though, as NK expects people to show up having done it for free.
The only systems unique and deserving of one-on-one instruction are automation, flight laws and maybe the ECAM system. Everything else is much like the last 2-3 airplanes you're typed in.
Of course, the program assumes you've been around 2-3 types of Part 25 jets, hence the problem. Regionals teach Jet Basic 101, no one else does.
I'm not going to defend the newhire program; it's deserving of all the criticism being laid upon it on here and elsewhere. But the reality is you're going to get CBT training on your own at most places now. At least they pay you for the trouble, though, as NK expects people to show up having done it for free.
The only systems unique and deserving of one-on-one instruction are automation, flight laws and maybe the ECAM system. Everything else is much like the last 2-3 airplanes you're typed in.
Of course, the program assumes you've been around 2-3 types of Part 25 jets, hence the problem. Regionals teach Jet Basic 101, no one else does.
11-06-2017 | 07:52 AM
#28
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,603
Likes: 0
Blaming the training department for failures is rationalizing the fact that we are hiring lesser qualified pilots and this is the result.
Guys busting orals in greater numbers than before? 5 years ago there wasn't a nice oral study guide, now there is. So how is training for the oral gotten worse? The majority of our APDs are the same APDs over the last 5 years, asking the same oral questions, and guys failing more than ever before. Guys are getting a much longer leash in training than they did 5 years ago, some allowed to redo the entire ground school. Never would you see that 5 years ago, but they need bodies, so they keep "sending them up" until they can pass.
Its been said time and time again, this is not a training program that is designed for low time pilots with little to no experience in 121, crew environment, fast paced training, high stress, jet systems.
When 25% of a class fails their check ride, this isn't the fault of instructors, its the fact that the training system is and always has been a fast paced rush job and it is glaringly obvious this doesn't work any longer.
Ill be honest, I couldn't care less that guys are failing. Its not like they made the training program harder, its easier than before. Let guys fail and leave, show the company that pilots are not as easy to attract as hanging a "Now Hiring" sign in the window down in Miramar.
Until the company decides to pay the pilots, guys will continue to fail because $38 will only get you so much in todays market. So let them fail, sounds cold, but its our only leverage we have now, the school house. Failing a training program isn't the death punch it was before and many of these failures can easily go back to a regional and make more money. While there, they can build up some more experience that they may have lacked at 2200TT when they applied here.
Guys busting orals in greater numbers than before? 5 years ago there wasn't a nice oral study guide, now there is. So how is training for the oral gotten worse? The majority of our APDs are the same APDs over the last 5 years, asking the same oral questions, and guys failing more than ever before. Guys are getting a much longer leash in training than they did 5 years ago, some allowed to redo the entire ground school. Never would you see that 5 years ago, but they need bodies, so they keep "sending them up" until they can pass.
Its been said time and time again, this is not a training program that is designed for low time pilots with little to no experience in 121, crew environment, fast paced training, high stress, jet systems.
When 25% of a class fails their check ride, this isn't the fault of instructors, its the fact that the training system is and always has been a fast paced rush job and it is glaringly obvious this doesn't work any longer.
Ill be honest, I couldn't care less that guys are failing. Its not like they made the training program harder, its easier than before. Let guys fail and leave, show the company that pilots are not as easy to attract as hanging a "Now Hiring" sign in the window down in Miramar.
Until the company decides to pay the pilots, guys will continue to fail because $38 will only get you so much in todays market. So let them fail, sounds cold, but its our only leverage we have now, the school house. Failing a training program isn't the death punch it was before and many of these failures can easily go back to a regional and make more money. While there, they can build up some more experience that they may have lacked at 2200TT when they applied here.
11-06-2017 | 08:15 AM
#30
Line Holder
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 83
Likes: 0
Oh so true. The trips where the FO needs little to no "guidance" is such a rarity now vs 2 years ago.
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