Avianca flies N registered jets.

The override pay is a joke. It’s definitely not a guarantee. I like how the union and company are advising it’s an additional 2 percent raise. Thats definitely not the case. It’s done off of block hours and if anyone even looks at the percentage of hours we are getting for the last few years it has never reach 2 percent. I just look at mine for this up coming pay period and we are actually getting 1.58%. So when you do the math it’s not $306 an hour as advertised it’s actually $304 an hour. I know we are supposed to get more 321 this next year but those will be a wash with all the extra 320 we are also getting. Our union does a great job with smoke and mirrors on every TA they have ever brought to the pilot group.


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You exceeded current legacy pay rates with your AIP.
Bragging about matching 4 year old pay rates isn't saying much for B6

I’m glad someone else noticed our override hasn’t hit 2 percent in years.

Sorry, but no. B6 current contract was ratified 5 years ago, has more or less matched legacy contracts that were ratified 5 years ago. Our new TA will exceed the OLD legacy and OLD B6 contract.

I guarantee B6 is gonna be similar to the new legacy TA’s when they come out, which will be much better than ours.

JetBlues focused TA is going to blow us out of the water and we are going to look like chumps

snap up would have been nice…..

It’s not too late

I think the negotiating committee intends to include an increase to jetBlue rates as part of the transition process agreement (just reading the tea leaves, most likely wrong).

Does anyone know if there is precedent in prior mergers for that to happen? Hopefully they will be more clear on what they intend to fight for in a TPA.

good point

I believe that is what happened with AK/VA, VA snapped up to AK, and this is the goal for the TPA.

I doubt it, not with this NC.

Whatever we get now we'll be stuck with until the JCBA, which is years down the line.

There’s no way you can possibly know that, just like there’s no way you can be sure that management will rush to return to the table if this agreement is voted down. Management might immediately return to the table. They also might agree to raise pay to B6 in a TPA. There is no way to know for sure, and stating anything for certain is fearmongering

It's not fearmongering it's one of many probable outcomes. We can all go back and forth and say what if this or that happens it will result in xyz. Most yes voters have a set of beliefs generally that we will be back at the table in 1-2 years and be able to negotiate further pay then. Most no voters believe if we take this TA regardless if we come back to the table in that time frame we lose most if not all our leverage for any meaningful pay increase and manage will drag it out until its time to try to get a jcba which will also take time 4-7 years? Regardless of what each other believe I don't think anyone is fearmongering as much as they are trying to put out a point of view that will sway the other side.

Yeah, you do have a point

"We'll get 'em next time"

The NC can intend all they want. Unless the company comes back to the table nothing will happen. Two ways for that to happen: 51%+ votes no, or attrition remains too high. I think for now the company will wait and see because they think this TA is good enough to get people to stay.

Swing and a miss. I can tell you have outdated/misguided info. Do you know we (B6) are currently in negotiations, and there is no AIP yet? The rates we have now are our current OLD rates. You're sleeping.


And no, it's not my intention to be bragging about anything. My intention is for all of us to be paid fairly, regardless of the business model.

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Stand down.... talking to these people is like talking to the wall.

Not all of us.

I personally can't give away the leverage we have today for these rates and the lack of a snap up. I will vote -no- but I think this will pass.

If this acquisition falls through we will pay a big price, if it doesn't we look weak. People will vote what's best for them, such is life. Sorry.

I think it’s funny that in the same thought you think this is a crap TA, but if this TA passes using your same logic we should still have plenty of leverage because people would still be leaving.

so in other-words, if the TA passes and the JetBlue merger fails. We go back straight to negotiations and we have just as much leverage. (Because using your logic this is a crappy TA and people will still be leaving anyways)


we are in a win-win situation if we say yes to this TA!

Please explain how we have the same leverage when the company can raise first year pay to within a percentage of second year pay? I agree it may not help attrition but it definitely helps them with attraction. We'll be negotiating for years, not months.

Probably good enough to pass, but not good enough for people to stay.

Good enough for enough people to stay. This passes, leverage gone.

Attrition will go down.

…and that is why we STILL have leverage!!! Well said.

a win-win if this TA passes!

swing and a miss…

This passes it will make zero short term difference. Must be 100-120 guys with CJOs elsewhere awaiting their class dates right now. And at least as many more burnishing their resumes and prepping for interviews. I think without really major changes in benefits and compensation, NK may wind up like AK. The lifers are those with too much invested in their seniority to leave or locals who are putting up with less than the legacies because of their bases.

I get what you’re saying (finally) but what if this does make a big dent in attrition/retention(even halving the losses)? It probably won’t, but if it does, and the leverage (of refusing to allow them to adjust first year pay without benefiting the rest) does go away for future negotiations because of that, is it still a good deal? And let’s not use any assumptions that the TPA and JCBA get accomplished quickly, raise pay, “two bites”, and all those wishes. Just this TA on its own.

yeah but unlike AK we get the opportunity to negotiate with our JB brothers & sister for a JCBA

If this passes nobody knows what will happen with hiring and attrition. You think it won’t make a difference, but Spirit thinks it will otherwise they wouldn’t offer it. I tend to agree with Spirit that it will help. But we don’t know for sure, I could be wrong. The only thing we know for sure is that we have an INSANE amount of leverage right now.

EDIT:
I think Spirit knows maybe it’s not enough, but it buys them time. If this passes, they can manage long enough till the JCBA.

You're assuming the B6/NK merger is approved. If it isn't, then we're stuck with this half-baked TA for years waiting for Franke and Co. to really hose us.

100 percent

This will for sure put a very big dent in attrition.

Being able to move first year pay at their will will be cemented in there and we and the JetBlue pilots will have to pay to get it out and the price will be high. It may be 10+ years before we have todays conditions again but that language will come back to haunt us in the future.

JetBlue first year guys have been making $90 plus an hour for the last four years. They seem to have survived without screwing over their junior people.

And their 12 year 320 CAs make $283 +16% DC - and that’s their CURRENT contract. Again, without screwing over there newbies.

Frontiers attrition of new hires was 20% prior to the raise and…..wait for it……20% after the raise. Negligible change. I don’t have access to recruiting numbers. I really don’t think it’s as earth shattering a provision as it’s made out to be. Turns out the entire compensation package in addition to QOL makes the real difference. Sprinkled with a bit of name on the plane no doubt.

… and the fear mongering continues…

It’s pretty humorous. Regarding the rumors with Frontier…

“Raise first year pay? Leverage gone!” - meanwhile Frontiers new hire attrition unchanged

“You can be sure DFW will be CLOSED if we merge!” -Frontier opens DFW base

“You can be sure Franke and Frontiers negotiation will drag out for YEARS!” -Spirit and Frontier said they hoped to have the merger complete by the end of 2022. TA sent out only after 3 months….

Some of yall need to call my good buddy JG Wentworth really bad.

I hear he’s great if you have a structured settlement.

So this Spirit TA is part of the Spirit Frontier merger? Nice!

true, there is that risk… but I do think this merger easily gets approved