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Airline Pilot Central Forums (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/)
-   Spirit (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/spirit/)
-   -   Voting opened (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/spirit/140982-voting-opened.html)

Aero1900 12-31-2022 03:11 PM
Frontier guy here.

I have read almost all the posts on the TA threads here and on the JB section.

I just wanted to say that I feel bad for you guys. I think this vote is a really tough call. Before the JB TA, it seemed like a Yes. Take the money and go back to the table in 2 years. But after seeing the JB TA it's a tougher sell.

From a selfish standpoint as a Frontier pilot, I'd love to see you guys vote it down and get more on TA2. But I understand that the short duration makes the time value of money a tough sell on waiting 6 months when the JCBA is only 2 years away in all likelihood.

I wish you guys the best! You guys are really our only true peer group.

Halon1211 12-31-2022 03:34 PM
Originally Posted by Aero1900 (Post 3563036)
Frontier guy here.

I have read almost all the posts on the TA threads here and on the JB section.

I just wanted to say that I feel bad for you guys. I think this vote is a really tough call. Before the JB TA, it seemed like a Yes. Take the money and go back to the table in 2 years. But after seeing the JB TA it's a tougher sell.

From a selfish standpoint as a Frontier pilot, I'd love to see you guys vote it down and get more on TA2. But I understand that the short duration makes the time value of money a tough sell on waiting 6 months when the JCBA is only 2 years away in all likelihood.

I wish you guys the best! You guys are really our only true peer group.
I appreciate that! Our union put together a pretty good presentation on this TA. This isn’t the final destination so to speak on this… t’s just one step towards the end goal and some people think that this TA is it.

Happy New Years!

CincoDeMayo 12-31-2022 03:47 PM
Originally Posted by Aero1900 (Post 3563036)
Frontier guy here.

I have read almost all the posts on the TA threads here and on the JB section.

I just wanted to say that I feel bad for you guys. I think this vote is a really tough call. Before the JB TA, it seemed like a Yes. Take the money and go back to the table in 2 years. But after seeing the JB TA it's a tougher sell.

From a selfish standpoint as a Frontier pilot, I'd love to see you guys vote it down and get more on TA2. But I understand that the short duration makes the time value of money a tough sell on waiting 6 months when the JCBA is only 2 years away in all likelihood.

I wish you guys the best! You guys are really our only true peer group.
Don’t feel bad for us, you have to try and get cash from Franke next year. Good luck

Lakeaffect 12-31-2022 03:50 PM
Originally Posted by CincoDeMayo (Post 3562990)
The NC has made the case, correctly, that if JBLU is $80 more an hour than we are, the argument will be made that because NK benefits so much from contractual gains, it needs to be considered when deciding on an integration methodology for the pre merger hired pilots.
And I’m sure we will make the case that our superior work rules will be beneficial to JB pilots and therefore yadayadayada…. If our work rules are really so much better than JB’s, that would make our contracts on even ground and it should be taken into consideration, which would cancel that concern out. A lot of stuff will be argued, most of it’s probably not gonna make a difference. But the NC is correct, the argument will be made.

fumeevented 12-31-2022 03:53 PM
Originally Posted by CincoDeMayo (Post 3562588)
Ding ding we have a winner

Company is so concerned about first year pay that they did NOT flat increase it in this TA when they could, union wanted to. They also didn’t move training pay much at all

Doesn’t seem like they are half as concerned as some pilots are.

Bank the money, move on to the next fight
the company is playing you like a fiddle. They didnt raise 1st year as high as they need because it would make the rest of the pay scale look ridiculous in comparison. They'll raise it to what they really wanted the second the TA passes.

Either get more money up front or make them remove the blank check on 1st year pay. Either way, this one has to be a no.

fumeevented 12-31-2022 04:14 PM
Originally Posted by Justabusdriver1 (Post 3562973)
Yeah I’m trying to assume a best case scenario there we can get $15 added to every rate dos and dos+1. I don’t see us having something to vote on again in just a month. Union has to poll the group sort through the result schedule meetings with the company and begin negotiating. I think 6 mo is realistically the earliest we could have a new deal. 9-12 mo is conservative.

Just looking at this financially you have to consider the opportunity cost of holding out. I think if we were considering a long term contract it makes sense to hold out, I think if we weren’t merging where we will be negotiating pay parity right after this it makes sense to hold out.
It only took 3 months to start from scratch, but polishing it up a bit is going to take 6 months.....ok.

CincoDeMayo 12-31-2022 04:26 PM
Originally Posted by fumeevented (Post 3563058)
the company is playing you like a fiddle. They didnt raise 1st year as high as they need because it would make the rest of the pay scale look ridiculous in comparison. They'll raise it to what they really wanted the second the TA passes.

Either get more money up front or make them remove the blank check on 1st year pay. Either way, this one has to be a no.
Cool. Brought to you by the same guy who claimed the displacement bid would go away as soon as the F9 merger died. Sorry but I don’t trust your insight or instinct.

Must be the fumes.

Happy New Year. Enjoy the $50k extra in 2023, brought to you by Yes voters. 😃

Noisecanceller 12-31-2022 04:27 PM
Originally Posted by CincoDeMayo (Post 3562964)
It’s more than the 6 months lost. Even IF you get a deal in 6 months, it’s not 6 months lost at DOS rates, it’s 6 months longer to get to the new TA DOS+1rates.

So the loss of wages also has to be figured with taking longer to get to DOS1 rates. So any TA2 rates would need to smash DOS+1 rates as well.

If it takes a year to get TA2, not only did you lose all of the year with the raise, but now the new TA2 has to best TA1 DOS+1 rates. Makes no sense when we are dealing with a 2 year deal.
Why would a new deal reset DOS+1 and +2 necessarily.

We could negotiate DOS + 6mo. JetBlues TA has their raises over an 18mo period. Doesn’t have to always be a year after DOS.

Saying this is a two year deal also puts a lot of faith that this merger is going to happen. I think it will but there is always a possibility it doesn’t and we will be living with this for a very long time if it doesn’t.

CincoDeMayo 12-31-2022 04:29 PM
Originally Posted by Noisecanceller (Post 3563086)
Why would a new deal reset DOS+1 and +2 necessarily.

We could negotiate DOS + 6mo. JetBlues TA has their raises over an 18mo period. Doesn’t have to always be a year after DOS.

Saying this is a two year deal also puts a lot of faith that this merger is going to happen. I think it will but there is always a possibility it doesn’t and we will be living with this for a very long time if it doesn’t.
Ah, and there it is. If it doesn’t happen, how long do you think a full section 6 will take, average is 3 years.

So if the merger fails and we head to section 6, you want to be at 2018 rates for 3 years or TA rates for 3 years?

Justabusdriver1 12-31-2022 04:32 PM
Originally Posted by fumeevented (Post 3563078)
It only took 3 months to start from scratch, but polishing it up a bit is going to take 6 months.....ok.
“Polishing it up” the company has to agree to start from what was already accomplished. Who’s to say they won’t come back and say we start from scratch.

Idk where you got 3 months from pretty sure they came out in august and said they’d be starting early openers. Maybe sitting down at the table took 3 months but getting all the logistics to go to the table took several more weeks like scheduling out all the meeting polling the pilot group. All that has to happen again. Clearly it’s not about polishing it up. Complainers just straight up want more money and more concession from the company. Getting that out of them won’t take a week, it won’t take 2.


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