We "let our negotiators do their thing" huh?

Do that, and we WILL lose.

We didn't just take a "let the negotiators do their thing" vote. We took a strike authorization vote. The lack of understanding you show is one of the main reasons I opposed the vote in the first place.( we were NOT taking any unifying actions) We absolutely MUST back up the vote with ACTIONS.

The negotiators have already been doing their thing, it wasn't working if you need a reminder. Now, the SPC better get ramped up post haste. We just told the company that we are ready to strike, if our actions don't say STRIKE, those words will go unheeded.

Brilliant. 97%+ say we are ready.

You and eight others say you're not.

After reading/listening to your views on this forum for the past several months - sounds like you are the one who must prepare.

My name is right there....I dont hide behind anonymous screen names. I dont have any need to call you. I didn't start this war, you did. I have no problem with expressing opinions, but you took it to another level. You are attempting to undermine the efforts of the current MEC instead of joining your fellow pilots in our war against the company. Thats right, the war is against the company, not me, not the MEC, the company. We get an awesome result from the strike vote and the first thing you do is come on here and attack me...WT*! If you have issues with how SC is handling this, then take it out on him.....call him! His number is readily available too. I also dont use the no fly list....I am a professional and can act as such. With all of your experience you should know that we are not going on strike tomorrow, if ever. So it is not suprising that we are not prepared to go on strike. I have faith in my union leaders that we will be prepared should the time come. They have done a fantastic job and I am confident they will continue to do so.

Please dont use this forum as a means to advance your own agenda. If you have a bone to pick with the current MEC then I suggest you attend an LEC meeting and voice your opinion, that is the proper place to do so.

Chill out Gentlemen! Healthy debates please. No need for name calling or defamation around here. We're grown-up professionals and acting like spoiled 12 year-old's will do nothing for our cause.
Go pop a Heineken and relaxxx...

Peace!

Well said. One of the many reasons I don't sign into the other board.

Both make some valid points. One is that we are not prepared, this is obvious. But you would have to have had your head stuck up a pipe for this history of union negotiations if you think this means a strike will be soon. The main point is it could be more than a year or two before we even get close to a strike. And if it starts to get to that point I believe we will be prepared.

I don’t think it is a wise idea to call someone a D-Bag Scott. You are on your second year, so you should sign up and volunteer. It will go farther than wasting your time on here. O, and by the way, do not call other Spirit pilot names, regardless of their political position or vote. It is not polite and unprofessional. Be well.

Sorry dude, me and ALL of my know associates vote for the strike. I also voted for our current contract, what else do you need to know?

OBTW, 97%+ said that they understand the need for unity. I have only spoken to ONE pilot who claims to be "ready".

Im Ready, sign in hand. Anyone else with me.

No, you hide behind the other four or five Spirit pilots who happen to be named scott

If you think this was "war" you might be surprised if a real war started.

For those who read without anger, my actions are intended to force our leaders to do the job in such a way that we win. If the truth undermines Spirit ALPA's argument, then that argument was weak and would have lost. It is people such as myself that will save you from yourself.

I will let the readers judge who attacked who. I only pointed out that your comment about letting the "negotiators do their thing" was not realistic. I pointed out that we must begin to show group action and unity.


I just love it when people make the point for me. You just told the company that you don't really stand behind your "strike" vote. I know that ALPA can request a release at any time. In fact, they could have requested a release without a strike authorization vote - as they DID last July.

WE JUST PASSED A STRIKE AUTHORIZATION VOTE. Again, you make my point for me.

My agenda is my career. I don't really care about hurting the company, or sending a message, or any of the stuff you think I care about. I'm not running for office, I'm not running a recall, I'm not advocating a recall, I don't have an agenda other than protecting my job.

My rep and our contract administrator know my position. The MEC Chair works for my rep, not the other way around.

Thanks again for making my point that we are not prepared to strike. No thanks for again telling the company that we do not expect to strike. Everytime one of you tries to assure the rest of us that the strike authorization vote doesn't mean that we will strike, you are doing nothing more than undermining the very process that you want to help.

I'm trying to ensure we are prepared and can win, you are trying to defend your friends political positions.

I have maybe one friend at Spirit.(wasn't there long enough to make any others.) :D

I have to laugh. While you are reveling in your opinions, my mind is clear. I/we have worked hard and shall continue to work hard (here or elsewhere - no matter time and place) to demand a better quality of life for my/our family(ies). We derserve because we have earned and executed. Continue to cloud the subject, as well as expect respect for what you pretend to know. You're wasting my time.

OK folks. Spoke to our CP and he confirmed that corporate has officially "anticipated delivery" of 4 new A320's. The first one to be delivered in March, 2010. I had heard the rumor but hoped the deliveries would occur sooner. All furlougees should be back by next year. That's the official word.

You know, that is good news if it stays true. For guys like me who were furloughed in the first group, unemployment is running out, and we are getting to the point were we haven't flown 100 hours in the past 12 months, which a lot of flight jobs want. Any sign of hope is good.

Best rumour I've heard today, for sure!

Our CP assured me that it's no longer just a rumor. He said it is a fact. Corporate is moving to bring in new planes on property. My take is that many things can change in the external environment in the mean time (worstening economy, natual disasters, terrorism), knock on wood. But all things equal...we should see some 320's by early next year.

I try not to post on these boards but I feel bad for some of the new guys hoping for a solid future at Spirit. Things will never be great at Spirit for the following reasons.
1. Union representation has often worked in their best interest, often cooperating with management and not the pilots they represent. Must I say this is not all, but there is a strong track record.
2. Pilot intimidation by Spirit Management specifically lead by your current director of operations is well documented. Although this is a tactic used by a lot of airlines at one point or another Spirit finds a way to take this to a new level. This is evident by the enormous number of notice of investigations issued by management. The union has made several statements regarding this intimidation, just read some of your mec emails. You can also read some of the more hidden intimidation messages in your chief pilots, now DO weekly letters. The frequency of these investigations by percentage is higher then most major airlines with more then 10 times the number of pilots. I cannot begin to state all the good pilots who have been threatened by this sort of intimidation, often for doing the right thing.
3. The weakness in the pilot group itself. Spirit has some senior pilots who have often bragged to me about the huge salary they were making by picking up loads of open time. Mind you some of these individuals often felt the need to brag about their earnings while simultaneously demonstrating how incompetent some of them were flying the aircraft. Generally, there were reasons why these sub 2000 hires never could get hired at a major, yes they are dangerous. Now, don't confuse these guys with some of the really good guys, notably the a couple ex eastern guys, and a couple of senior check airman. These guys will never support the rest of the pilot group. I think some of you have all flown with your hotel ALPA guy, (I think his name starts with H if its still him) and been scared somehow. This chump once told me " I would do anything to save my job, pay cut, I don't care about the junior guy".

Now, there are a lot of good pilots/people at spirt as well, but with the corporate culture at Spirit you are fighting a losing battle. What I suggest is keep quiet, build your experience and wait for a new opportunity to arise. Now in this economy this might take some time, but it will come. Just don't live in the utopia that spirit will one day be a great place to work, it won't. Not unless there is a complete flush of management and enough expansion to wipe out the effects of all the bad seeds. I do applaud you for caring and trying to make a difference. I hope that you are successful, but you must also carefully analyze the reality that is Spirit!

Be quiet and wait!

move on and wait some more.

EVERY AIRLINE HAS THE SAME PROBLEMS.

Old news!!!!:)

I beg to disagree with you. I have worked for several airlines and been hired at 2 majors. Spirit is a very unique case, and a very classless company. I feel really bad for all the good pilots/people at spirit and around the industry. I decided about a year ago that I needed to find a way to bring the issues good competent pilots face to the forefront of public debate. Over the past year I have been working with a well known publisher in writing a book bringing a realistic and somewhat painful reality about the airlines, and how they really work. The book is almost done, but I am currently working through legal issues with my attorney. I did not leave anything out including employee names, company names, flight releases, mx reports, ect, all of these have created significant legal issues. The only stuff that will be confidential is the identities of pilots who provided me additional information. My hope is to inform the public, and hopefully force this industry down another path, a path that airline pilots deserve. Its also important that we stand up for our fallen Colgan friends. Although we don't know the full story as of yet, we all realize that there were many factors that led to the two pilots being in that situation. As a former regional pilot, we all learned most on our own, or from fellow pilots. I know by experience that I did not get the same level of training at the regional as I did at the majors. Discount is discount, you get what you pay for. Well I am getting off topic. My points about Spirit will be well addressed in my book, so I hope you buy it once it hits the shelves.

Do you mean that your colleagues will not get a free copy?

I really hope you do well with your book. It is always good to see people using the creative side of the brain. But the reality is that we complain, then we change jobs and complain some more.

You, as a seasoned pilot must know that we are difficult people to satisfy. Not to say that Airlines should treat pilots the way they do, I think is a double edge knife.

One of the contributing factors are our Unions, The rumors, The He said-She said comments, and my personal favorite the Single Pilot Operation "me-me-me" Attitude.

I hope things change, meanwhile I keep playing lottery...:)

Agree to disagree. Cheers!

Yes, I will give out free copies where I can. The proceeds are going to help wrongfully terminated pilots get job retraining or any other assistance to get them back on their feet again. I understand that a business is simply that, a business. I am not talking about run of the mill pilot vs management conflict, but disputes that pilots are forced to fly in conditions in which they should not. Spirit has promoted their efficient fuel savings program even at the expense of safety. Right from the former Do's mouth " we would rather you divert then give you an extra drop of gas" How many Captains got called on the carpet for requesting more fuel, Well I knew at least 2, I flew with them. Speak up, lose your job. Some choice that is! This is only one example of Spirits corporate philosophy. I know the majors I have been hired at would never ever question a pilot for putting safety first even if that meant taking a little extra fuel. So like I said Spirit is the worse case scenario. I agree with the " he said she said thing" so I based everything in my book on facts. I did a great job of documenting things, basically at the time to protect myself. Spirit would not think twice about turning you into the feds. I am sure there are some Spirit pilots reading this board that have been the victim of a Spirit disclosure the the feds.

The problem is, go interview any pilot from any airline in the US and you will get the same exact story.....management sucks, pay sucks, work rules suck, we cant get a good contract, contract violations, etc, etc. Its everywhere dude. I hear what you are saying and dont completely disagree with you, but what are we to do. Should we leave our seniority number here just to go join the bottom of the list at another company and be greeted with the same problems we just left? One thing I have learned is the grass isn't always greener on the other side. As Spirit pilots we are much better off fighting to fix the problems here than running off somewhere else to join their fight. We are a small airline, with many problems, and a HUGE potential for growth. Everyone here knows what Spirit is.....I guess we all just hope it lives up to what it can become.

Well, I have to say that I don't really know much about those cases that you are talking about, and the DO's comments about fuel. But if true it would not be the first wrong thing from management to employees in our Industry. Spirit is not exempt.

After 6 years, lots of broken promises, tons of problems between pilots, dispatchers, union and management I left a major commuter outfit to join Spirit. Today a year and 5 months later, 6 months on furlough and recalled back to work, I stand by my decision in coming here.

Just like CA Scott said, the grass is Not always greener on the other side, our problems here at Spirit are not unfixable, we just need to work a little harder in fixing them.

I rather think about my future career here, than think about the future at the bottom of another company's list, with new problems.

Cheers.:)

Your flat out wrong about your evaluation of Spirit vs the rest of the industry. I have first hand experience to dispute your assumption. Led by Mr Olechowski and Mr. Puyear, two of the most classless individuals in the industry, are the major players who helped create the wonderful " pilot friendly" climate. The levels of personal destruction and intimidation tactics used by these individuals are second to no one in the industry. Like I stated in an earlier example no airline calls pilots in on days off for "notices of investigation" more often then spirit, NO ONE! Your right things are fixable, but not with the current group of clowns running the show. Your career will always be hanging on a thread. When that thread breaks you will be counting on a very weak union to save your tail. Your right things are not always greener on the other side, going to the bottom of a list, being on reserve ect. However, there is a different culture at a major. I was never questioned about calling in sick, nor did I personally ever get any grief for making a decision based on safety. So if you really want to make this work I suggest you band together shut up the Tureks and bielaska's of Spirit, get rid of the management cancers (olechowski), and the weak union guys in bed with company. The great majority of Spirit pilots are great guys, but you have some bad seeds taking this small airline down. I can't release the good stuff yet, but I have yet to see this situation occur at a major or regional I have been employed at. Here is just one example of the type of people YOU are counting on. This is a copy of an email sent out by a spirit captain.

"Here are some other emails I sent to the MEC and never received a response. You would think a MEC as clean as the VIRGIN MARRY would respond.....???? How can they respond when they are GUILTY as SIN....!!!

Lets get this straight, a Captain Rep turned in one of our pilots to the FAA and we are going to sit back and look the other way.....??? What if they turned you in....what would you think???

You guys need to step up and ask the tough questions................Did you turn the FO into the FAA...YES or NO???
If you discover the Captain RAT turned in the FO you should think about recalling him. The ball is in your court.


Thanks,

XXXXXXXX
Captain/check airman"

Grounded320

You leave me speechless, really, I don't know wether you have personal agenda, vendetta, or just plain sore feelings about your time at NK with some individuals or management altogether.

I can not change any of it, nor can I put my hands on fire for any of the people you mention here. But like I said before, If all true, it is bad on our company and pilot group. But I am sure that your opinion and research does not reflect every pilot here, or management procedures in general.

This may be something that will have legal consequences. I am not one to talk bad about people in this form, so I have to give you the wining chips on the subject, and wish you best of luck on the project.

Colgan pilots, I do not have any comments about that.

Cheers:)

I find this a very interesting topic and the conversations that has taken place here. I also find it ironic that a pilot would wait until he or she has left a company to make acusations about the a former employer. I would think that you as a professional pilot would have the respect to address these issues while you were working at this company, especially if it pertains to safety of flight issues. It is your duty and obligation as a professional pilot to seek corrective actions to these items that your claiming.

I would tread cautiously with the accounts that will be published in your book it could be interpreted in a legal standpoint, as you yourself acted in a careless and reckless manner and allowed this condition to continue without reporting it. Perhaps you were intimidated by management not to report this under fear of retaliation against the company and ultimately resulting in termination I don't know.

Every airline has their problems and it is up to the pilot group to correct them as best we can..........

Hey sailor. No agenda at all, and if you read my posts I specifically mentioned there were a lot of good people at Spirit, I also cited some of the bad apples too. I decided to walk away from the industry on my own terms so I have nothing to gain. As stated earlier all of my book sales will be going to help pilots and not my pocket. I am now in medical school and I am very happy, but I have to admit I do miss flying. The bottom line was that I worked very hard like many others in this industry. I know how hard the road is, in fact at my first regional job I slept in my truck for a short time because I could not afford to live on training pay. I also know that a lot of good people are afraid to speak up, do what's right out of fear of retaliation by management and fellow pilots. Many have families to support and I understand its not easy to speak up, fighting a big machine alone is not easy and often results in an unfortunate result. Now that I am out I can voice my opinion without the fear of a retaliatory response on a check ride (well all know that happens),an NOI from management, or even termination. I care about what happens to this industry, but I have no empathy for those who have made a living at destroying the moral of pilots, especially pilots turning on pilots. I think more public awareness will help. Look at the focus already being generated regarding the Colgan crash. Its not much yet, but its a start. Do I have motivation, well maybe you will come to my office to get your medical in say... 7 years. You seem like a good guy sailor and I wish you the best of luck.

PanPan A bitter response.... Let me tell you I did speak up and I was not a fan of management. Unfortunately when I ended up at the alter, I was often standing alone.... some people just can't afford to stand up. I never operated a flight I did not believe was safe and I didn't care if the company wanted to hang me or not. The facts will show that spirit is in a league of its own. Yes, american, delta, united all have their issues, but what's going on at spirit is not happening there. If you think this is the case, well you better become better informed. As for the legal issues they are being dealt with very carefully. I take it your a spirit guy, you can't honestly tell me what I have cited so far is nothing but truth. I hope that public focus on your DO and others will put pressure to change the corporate culture and make your airline a really good place to work.

I don't know about getting my medical at you office, kind of like my Dr. and it's very close to my house. But who knows, the future is the future and will never know.

Also, you or someone you know may catch a ride on one of my flights, and we'll get to chat about all this, or maybe not. Who knows.

I really hope all that you are doing is in good faith and with a constructive end and not a destructive idea.

Cheers:)

grounded, you may have covered your bases for you book, but I somehow doubt that you have covered them on this forum. Ole can't help but see where you have slandered him. BTW, my guess is that your posts are simple publicity stunts. If you wanted to help airline pilots, you would not be trying to undermine the ones working for
Spirit. Agree with their tactics or not, a lot of pilots (from both sides of the spirit political spectrum) have worked/are working very hard to improve our lot in life. Attracting attention for your personal gain is about as unethical as anything you claim to stand against.

If you really want to prove your balls, I will be happy to arrange a face to face with Ole.

For those of you watching this family feud from the outside, our DO is a seniority list pilot who was first hired as the DTW base CP by ownership/management three generations back (IOW's he was hired by the very people that now side with his detractors). He has fired exactly three pilots in four years. Not quite the heinous record grounded presents. It also bears mentioning that Spirit has survived these last twelve months, something that ten or so other airlines can not claim. I have problems with the way ownership views people in general, but taking out ones venom on one particular pilot/manager is simply out of line.

I am sorry you feel that way. There is nothing slanderous about my comments, I have a legal right to my opinions. I am familiar with Ole, and he is not the type to confront an issue without his "big guns" fighting for him. I would equate him to school boy who would run his mouth then hide behind the teacher. How come you did not stick up for Puyear, perhaps another bad apple. Yes your DO history is correct, but he has forgotten where he came from when he was hired at spirit in 99. Don't trust my words of wisdom, why don't you just poll all the pilots threatened by Ole and his shut up and do it my way or else leadership. Why don't you pull up previous mec emails addressing the number of NOI's, sick call intimidation ect.. where was ole then????? So don't take my word for it, try the facts. As for his firing statistic, perhaps true, would have been significantly higher if he had not been restrained by labor laws. You fail to understand that this is not personal for me. I would like to see the majority of pilots at spirit be successful, but the I see the Kool Aid never stops flowing. Best of luck to you as well.

You say try the facts, then agree that my FACTS were correct. He's been the DO for less than a year. In that year the treatment has IMPROVED. What's your real motivation?

I was not referring specifically to his duration as DO, it was also inclusive of his time as CP. Hey if you got a thing for Ole I am ok with that. If you are interested in civilized debate I am willing to participate. I am not sure how many times I must state this. "I have no motivation"!!! I must add from what I understand any initial improvement was attributed to the nice guy that was appointed to replace ole as chief pilot.

Change Topic!!!!
 

I always enjoyed reading the funny rumors we pass along on this thread, but now, it has turned to be a discussion with no ending. If any of guys agree, please lets change topic here and keep the other forum for those wise arguments.

my humble opinion....:cool:

They are not rumors but fact. Never be afraid to stick up to the "man" no matter who he or she is. Right is never wrong,

Do it. Publish the book. Ill buy the first copy. As BBB would say, "Let him tell the world how bad we are.....!" Good luck to you.

Sorry grounded, I don't think that you are interested in a civil debate.

You're naming the names of people who are not here to defend themselves. You're calling those people names. Your time at Spirit was obviously short, but you are willing to characterize half of the seniority list as "never could get hired at a major" when in fact a significant number of those pilots were at a major when you were just a gleam in your daddy's eye. Spirit's seniority list includes many Eastern pilots as well as pilots from Midway, AirFlorida, Braniff, and others. Then you follow that slam with this, "yes they are dangerous". That my friend is a very serious charge, and it was not made in a civil way.

Next, no I don't have a "thing" for Ole. I do respect him and feel that he is fair and honest. But, I also got along quite well with Scotty.

You are at best disingenous, if not a liar when you say you have no motivation. You yourself wrote this, "My hope is to inform the public, and hopefully force this industry down another path, a path that airline pilots deserve." You either don't understand that words mean things, or you are just hoping that other people don't read.

Bitter Response?
 

No, not bitter at all just stating my opinion on this whole topic, hopefully your book will enlighten all of us to the point you wish to stress. Hopefully it will bring about the change to the industry that you would like to see. Hopefully you will give all your royalties to a charity, or better yet a Union "ALPA" perhaps to help keep fighting the fight and improve this industry.

However, I do believe that change will come from the pilot group working in unity for a common goal that will benefit both Spirits current and future Pilots. I think the recent vote that was taken there shows where the Spirit Pilot group stands, change starts from within.

Grounded, I think we can call it now.

You have your ideas and rights. We have ours. I do believe if you are not happy at a place of work, you resign. But to leave trashing people in public forums is not professional.

Cheers:)

Agreed Sailor. I'm sitting here in shock that someone would have the AUDACITY to get on a public forum and call Ole and Puyear "classless" yet want to publish a slanderous book "naming names?" Furthermore, this same individual thinks they are "professional" and "doing a service" to the industry. Who is the person..Mary Schiavo?? That's absolutely disgraceful.

This business is all about INTEGRITY. It wasn't long ago that a captain and I were put in a bad situation involving a maintenance problem. I can tell you from personal experience that PO and JC showed the utmost professionalism and looked out for both of us. We didn't need some union rep to stand up for us and make the situation worse. The captain and I JOINTLY decided to tell the truth, not hide any details, and we found Ole and JC respected our integrity and backed us up. We were cleared of ANY wrongdoing.

Writing a book, about your former co-workers, slandering them without any check on the facts, is something the likes of which the "New York Times" would do...Simply outrageous..
:mad:

I know I am not alone in having a lot of respect for Ole'
I would even bet that I am with the majority in my faith that his leadership, along with John's will make Spirit a much better place.