Spirit of NKS, Part II
12-26-2015 | 01:08 PM
#2291
Line Holder
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 901
Likes: 134
From: A320
Anybody know what happened in LGA this morning?
http://m.nydailynews.com/new-york/pa...icle-1.2477372
http://m.nydailynews.com/new-york/pa...icle-1.2477372
12-26-2015 | 01:23 PM
#2292
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,269
Likes: 0
New guy here at Spirit. Just curious what this trip averaging thing is? Sounds like something I'm going to learn to hate.
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12-26-2015 | 04:42 PM
#2293
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 272
Likes: 0
A lot of talk about upgrades, here are some figures.
There's two ways to look at the upgrade, both with their own faults.
First, based on upgrade classes.
There are 1350 pilots, with the most junior CA award for Feb. being around seniority 760. That leaves around 600 pilots waiting to upgrade. Upgrade classes are currently 14/month. 600 / 14 is about 42-43 months to upgrade.
This assumes that the class sizes don't change either up or down and more senior FOs who bypassed now take the upgrade.
The second way
Look at the % seniority which pilots are taking the upgrade. Currently it is around 56% on the seniority list. If that trend continues, there will need to be about 2400 pilots on property before the most junior FO (#1350) upgrades. With net growth around 30 pilots/month that will be around 35-36 months.
This assumes attrition doesn't increase and the % relative upgrade seniority doesn't change. It also doesn't include those who have bypassed upgrade.
In short, if current hiring and upgrade classes continue, it will be a 3 to 4 year upgrade vs. 2 years and 9 months it is currently.
There's two ways to look at the upgrade, both with their own faults.
First, based on upgrade classes.
There are 1350 pilots, with the most junior CA award for Feb. being around seniority 760. That leaves around 600 pilots waiting to upgrade. Upgrade classes are currently 14/month. 600 / 14 is about 42-43 months to upgrade.
This assumes that the class sizes don't change either up or down and more senior FOs who bypassed now take the upgrade.
The second way
Look at the % seniority which pilots are taking the upgrade. Currently it is around 56% on the seniority list. If that trend continues, there will need to be about 2400 pilots on property before the most junior FO (#1350) upgrades. With net growth around 30 pilots/month that will be around 35-36 months.
This assumes attrition doesn't increase and the % relative upgrade seniority doesn't change. It also doesn't include those who have bypassed upgrade.
In short, if current hiring and upgrade classes continue, it will be a 3 to 4 year upgrade vs. 2 years and 9 months it is currently.
I believe we have 79 airplanes. For 1350 pilots. That's about 17 pilots per plane. Or 8.5 captains per plane.
If there are 594 fo's waiting to upgrade, number 594 needs 70 aircraft on property to upgrade. From 79 that's 149 airplanes.
12-26-2015 | 05:12 PM
#2294
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 166
Likes: 0
A lot of talk about upgrades, here are some figures.
There's two ways to look at the upgrade, both with their own faults.
First, based on upgrade classes.
There are 1350 pilots, with the most junior CA award for Feb. being around seniority 760. That leaves around 600 pilots waiting to upgrade. Upgrade classes are currently 14/month. 600 / 14 is about 42-43 months to upgrade.
This assumes that the class sizes don't change either up or down and more senior FOs who bypassed now take the upgrade.
The second way
Look at the % seniority which pilots are taking the upgrade. Currently it is around 56% on the seniority list. If that trend continues, there will need to be about 2400 pilots on property before the most junior FO (#1350) upgrades. With net growth around 30 pilots/month that will be around 35-36 months.
This assumes attrition doesn't increase and the % relative upgrade seniority doesn't change. It also doesn't include those who have bypassed upgrade.
In short, if current hiring and upgrade classes continue, it will be a 3 to 4 year upgrade vs. 2 years and 9 months it is currently.
There's two ways to look at the upgrade, both with their own faults.
First, based on upgrade classes.
There are 1350 pilots, with the most junior CA award for Feb. being around seniority 760. That leaves around 600 pilots waiting to upgrade. Upgrade classes are currently 14/month. 600 / 14 is about 42-43 months to upgrade.
This assumes that the class sizes don't change either up or down and more senior FOs who bypassed now take the upgrade.
The second way
Look at the % seniority which pilots are taking the upgrade. Currently it is around 56% on the seniority list. If that trend continues, there will need to be about 2400 pilots on property before the most junior FO (#1350) upgrades. With net growth around 30 pilots/month that will be around 35-36 months.
This assumes attrition doesn't increase and the % relative upgrade seniority doesn't change. It also doesn't include those who have bypassed upgrade.
In short, if current hiring and upgrade classes continue, it will be a 3 to 4 year upgrade vs. 2 years and 9 months it is currently.
12-26-2015 | 05:15 PM
#2295
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,577
Likes: 0
Third way to get an estimate: amount of captains per Airplane.
I believe we have 79 airplanes. For 1350 pilots. That's about 17 pilots per plane. Or 8.5 captains per plane.
If there are 594 fo's waiting to upgrade, number 594 needs 70 aircraft on property to upgrade. From 79 that's 149 airplanes.
I believe we have 79 airplanes. For 1350 pilots. That's about 17 pilots per plane. Or 8.5 captains per plane.
If there are 594 fo's waiting to upgrade, number 594 needs 70 aircraft on property to upgrade. From 79 that's 149 airplanes.
12-26-2015 | 07:44 PM
#2296
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 520
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From: A320 starboard... Arrrr
Let's say you have a 2 day where you fly;
Day 1: 7 hours
Day 2: 1 hour
This two day is paid at 9 hours.
Highest of;
A- Block hours (8)
B- Duty periods (4.5x2=9)
You should be paid
Day 1: 7hrs
Day 2: 4.5hrs
Total: 11.5 Hours
12-26-2015 | 07:58 PM
#2297
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 815
Likes: 0
From: Low paid Airbus gear slinger
12-27-2015 | 07:42 AM
#2298
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 758
Likes: 1
The then owner, Dr. Jacob Schorr who inherited the CBA from the founder, didn't like paying a pilot 8 hours for a red eye turn from ACY. In CBA 2003, he demanded that he be allowed to pay for a duty day vs a calendar day. The NC attempted to build a system that was equivalent to CBA1999 for multi duty period pairings, but which didn't pay twice for single duty period. Ever since, the CBA has allowed the company to pay "the greater of" flight time, trip rip, or min per duty period (including an additional duty period for any RON longer than 22 hours).
Over the years, the company has learned how to build pairings that minimize the amount of credit for a pairing. If you study each pairing, you'll see that the pairings pay the least of each parameter.
Some will argue that we get block or better, which is basically true FOR THE PAIRING. What they don't realize is that the the "gotcha" is in the way the pairing is constructed. If you fly 18.5 during a 18 scheduled four day, you do get the 18.5, BUT under the old way, you'd likely have credited 22. Only when compared to a true calendar day guarantee do you realize how much the average costs us.
There used to be a Spirit pilot who posted here who had a great technical explanation of just how the pairings have evolved to where they are now, maybe he will jump in.
I'll say this, if you like four day pairings with one three leg day, one one leg day, one 21 hour sit and another long day, you'll love trip averaging.
12-27-2015 | 07:57 AM
#2299
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 815
Likes: 0
From: Low paid Airbus gear slinger
Way back in the stone ages (pre 2003), we were paid 4 hours per calendar day or what we flew if over 4 hours per calendar day.
The then owner, Dr. Jacob Schorr who inherited the CBA from the founder, didn't like paying a pilot 8 hours for a red eye turn from ACY. In CBA 2003, he demanded that he be allowed to pay for a duty day vs a calendar day. The NC attempted to build a system that was equivalent to CBA1999 for multi duty period pairings, but which didn't pay twice for single duty period. Ever since, the CBA has allowed the company to pay "the greater of" flight time, trip rip, or min per duty period (including an additional duty period for any RON longer than 22 hours).
Over the years, the company has learned how to build pairings that minimize the amount of credit for a pairing. If you study each pairing, you'll see that the pairings pay the least of each parameter.
Some will argue that we get block or better, which is basically true FOR THE PAIRING. What they don't realize is that the the "gotcha" is in the way the pairing is constructed. If you fly 18.5 during a 18 scheduled four day, you do get the 18.5, BUT under the old way, you'd likely have credited 22. Only when compared to a true calendar day guarantee do you realize how much the average costs us.
There used to be a Spirit pilot who posted here who had a great technical explanation of just how the pairings have evolved to where they are now, maybe he will jump in.
I'll say this, if you like four day pairings with one three leg day, one one leg day, one 21 hour sit and another long day, you'll love trip averaging.
The then owner, Dr. Jacob Schorr who inherited the CBA from the founder, didn't like paying a pilot 8 hours for a red eye turn from ACY. In CBA 2003, he demanded that he be allowed to pay for a duty day vs a calendar day. The NC attempted to build a system that was equivalent to CBA1999 for multi duty period pairings, but which didn't pay twice for single duty period. Ever since, the CBA has allowed the company to pay "the greater of" flight time, trip rip, or min per duty period (including an additional duty period for any RON longer than 22 hours).
Over the years, the company has learned how to build pairings that minimize the amount of credit for a pairing. If you study each pairing, you'll see that the pairings pay the least of each parameter.
Some will argue that we get block or better, which is basically true FOR THE PAIRING. What they don't realize is that the the "gotcha" is in the way the pairing is constructed. If you fly 18.5 during a 18 scheduled four day, you do get the 18.5, BUT under the old way, you'd likely have credited 22. Only when compared to a true calendar day guarantee do you realize how much the average costs us.
There used to be a Spirit pilot who posted here who had a great technical explanation of just how the pairings have evolved to where they are now, maybe he will jump in.
I'll say this, if you like four day pairings with one three leg day, one one leg day, one 21 hour sit and another long day, you'll love trip averaging.
12-27-2015 | 10:58 AM
#2300
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 513
Likes: 0
http://fortune.com/2015/12/07/worst-airline-customer-service/
"Getting better all the time!"
Now, where's our GOD------ contract
"Getting better all the time!"
Now, where's our GOD------ contract
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