It sounds like you are dumping on JB and Virgin pilots. I think one could easily argue that JB and Virgin are doing a much better job at "setting the bar" than we are even if they weren't unionized in the past.

The past is the past, let's stop blaming other pilot groups for our contract and take some responsibility for ourselves.

 

Starting point? That implies you expect the TA (I'm still thinking 2020ish) to have better than jetBlew rates from DOS. I'll take that action.

 

Anything not exceeding JB rates at DOS would be laughable. If these rates don't exceed JB rates, (who's also negotiating new rates) they shouldn't even bother bringing it to us. I'd wipe my ass with this TA before flushing it down the toilet.

 

That's the point, they didn't set any bar, they were bought and paid for with raises. When it became inconvenient, then and only then did they unionize. Not blaming them, but also not holding them up with some sort of esteem. Their pay is fine for them, not for a group that has had to fight for it.

I can assure you that Jblu, nor Virgin, want OUR new pay to start at THEIR current rates today either.

By the way, while our contract today is bottom of the barrel, it was a different story back when it was voted in. Probably could have been better or maybe things could've been much worse. I wasn't here, so I can't/won't say definitively.

I'll end with I'm glad they finally brought alpa on their properties, but again, we shouldn't be using their rates as OUR starting point. We have other veteran alpa carriers, brothers, that have set OUR bar. Lets start there. Ok?

 

Yes, I do.

 

A previous poster listed JB and Virgin along with other pilot groups that have better pay than us. I think the point was to show how far off we are from them. I didn't take it as holding JB and Virgin "up with some sort of esteem."

I agree 100% we should be above JB and Virgin for our starting point.

 

That's an offensive post, laughable, and completely ignores history. You were a CA here and should know better. Both B6 and VX are ALPA now. Both these airlines are also relatively newer on the market compared to Spirit and others. B6 started flying in 2000 and VX in 2007. 7 years in, I'd say what VX isn't bad all things considered.

Rode the waves of dues paying members? No one at VX was a newbie to the industry. You know what makes up the group. Ex-Aloha, ex-Midwest, ex-ATA, ex-Champion, ex-AWA, ex-US Airways, ex-TWA, ex- ex- ex a crap load of airlines in which they were dues paying ALPA members left with no job at the end of the day. People here are ex-MEC Chairs, ex-Vice Chairs of their respective airline before and have fought to try and make this place better. VAPA tried in 2012 which was not even 5 years into existence for the company. That union drive failed on a technicality when it came to counting the cards. Just as soon as it was dead, the motions slowly started again for a union drive and it was ALPA. Maybe you have forgotten since you left, but no one is just riding the coattails. Not since the first day the VAPA drive began.

Your MEC embracing that is your problem. And yes, even the National Mediation Board members that mediate will look at your group to include jetBlue and Virgin. You may not like it but it is a peer defined by the NMB and so it is what it is. Good luck in your contract fight and for the sake of pattern bargaining I really do hope you get a package better than jetblue and Virgin. But don't be so quick to throw stones, in one way or another we are all in this together.

 

Those AA rates are incorrect.

 

Gotta throw the BS flag on that one. The rates themselves were lower than average, even considering outliers like Airways. Include the lacking retirement, ltd, std, premium pay, rigs, etc and there's not enough lipstick in the world to make that pig look good. The mec and nc sold it hard, and it was voted in on fear and apathy.

 

Not throwing a single stone, shy. You have your perspective, I have mine. As I said, your rates are good for you, not us and I'm tired of hearing too many of our guys think they're a good starting point. The bar must be raised, not left where it currently sits. This environment is too great for status quo and the profession trampled for too many years.