Could you imagine that SLI if an ALPA carrier bought JB?!!

That's fine, they can do that. A couple of guys at my previous airline did that, then one had a medical issue and wanted help from ALPA Aeromedical so he had to pay 8 years of back dues first. The other had a slight mishap and had to do the same thing.

BTW, ALPA helped them both when the company would not....you decide??

Is ALPA perfect, NO! Is it a better, safer option then our direct relationship (do not comment on the direct relationship unless you wear a blue shirt to work), ABSOLUTELY!!

You are kidding, right? THESE are your three "facts"? As an ALPA supporter, I could have picked out MUCH more damning examples than these!!

1) TWA was a dying company. Without going through the whole debate again, I agree the TWA seniority merger was not ALPA's finest moment. However, I'll ask you a simple question: How do you (honestly) think the merger would have gone for the TWA pilots had they been non-union? Who would have even argued on their behalf?? Lawyers are not cheap. Who would have paid for them?

2) The USAirways pilots voted out ALPA in a seniority grab after they weren't given straight DOH in their merger with AWA. I won't comment on my personal opinion of this move, but I think the feelings about the USAirways East is pretty consistent amongst the rest of the pilots in the industry. Even if you want to spin this wildly into a failure of ALPA, let's examine how the USAPA is doing for their membership, shall we? Absolutely industry bottom contract for the last 5 or so years, and a completely fractured pilot group. No end in sight.

3) Absolute, total, and complete nonsense. You contradict yourself in your own post. You say that ALPA negotiates jetBlue's contract for LIFE... EEEEK! Yet in your "fact" DIRECTLY above, you point out that USAirways pilots voted out ALPA. Ummm..... DUH. Think it through here.

You are entitled to your opinion about ALPA. That opinion is shared by many pilots, both on and off this board. Some are anti-union entirely, and some are just anti-ALPA for a variety of reasons. ALPA and unions are certainly FAR from perfect. But stop and really consider the alternatives. If the majority of pilots felt the way you do, and we all voted unions off the property tomorrow, what happens? Airline managements are free to impose their will on the pilot groups. Do you think they wouldn't? Do you think they consider you valuable "team members". Go look up what the company offered the UAL pilots in their 1113c filing dream contract in 2003. ZERO scope. ZERO work rules except FAR's. I can't even remember what the pay was, but I'm sure you can guess. ZERO retirement. ZERO protections against a manager that decides he doesn't like you because they are "overstaffed" at the moment and you miss a trip because your alarm clock didn't go off. Don't consider this a doomsday scenario that would never happen - go look it up!

Do us, and yourself a favor. Go read "Flying the Line" vol 1 and 2. Read it with a critical eye. Or if you consider that propaganda, go read "Hard Landings". If after reading about the history of unions in the piloting profession you still think there is no place for them, spout on, and organize the great union-out of our industry. Then watch what happens to the safety and security of your planes and your profession. Luckily, most of us "get it".

Because the very threat of ALPA is a large reason you have made the gains you have made in the past. Non-union carriers contracts are basically negotiated by the union pilots at other carriers... you know, the ones who pay their 2%. jetBlue doesn't just make up a contract for you, they look at what has been negotiated at other airlines and use it as a template for the pay and working conditions in your contracts.

Besides, Carl's answer is WAY too simplistic. A pilot union is about WAY more than just the contract negotiation.

Heyas Johnso,

My guess is that this union vote is motivated by that exact reason.

The industry is a duck right now....calm on the surface, but underneath, the legs are just a-churning.

FWIW, if the union negotiates an "agency shop" contract, which vitually all contracts are, those who don't choose to be members will still be compelled to pay an "agency fee", which supposedly covers the negotiation of the contract, which covers members and non-members alike. The fee is generally the same as dues, except you don't get any of the benefits, nor do you get to vote.

Failure to pay the agency fee is eventual termination.

Nu

Excellent post!

I agree. Consolidation in the industry will continue, JB is a likely target.

Don't do it Jet Blue pilots. You need to follow the advise by other posters and read everything you can about what ALPA did to the TWA pilots. Then you need to speak with former Eastern, Pan Am, TWA, USAirways pilots. ALPA has pilots across the board quitting the union every day. There are thousands, that's correct ... thousands, of pilots that will be more than happy to join the TWA pilots and stand atop the rubble of what used to be a union called ALPA.

Two Carl Spacklers? One with 4,000+ posts we all know and the new guy.

The question is, really? Now why would an adult take someones name, or at the least keep it?

Carl II, how come? If you wanted to argue with Carl so much why not do it the straight way?

^^^^This. There are several labor lawyers whom have questioned whether McCaskill-Bond would apply to JetBlue pilots since with our PEAs we are technically 2300 individual contractors.

The company, meanwhile, is arguing in court (3A) that we are individual contractors, while telling us in road-shows that we could collectively attempt to enforce our PEAs in the event of a transactional event. Really?

I won't re-hash our 401K that constantly fails ERISA testing, our industry-bottom health benefits, etc. JetBlue has admitted to us that without a CBA they cannot legally fix those issues, even if they cared to. Why that is ok with so many of the no-voters is far beyond me.