TWA Pilots vs. ALPA in DFR suit
02-18-2011, 03:26 PM
#31
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Originally Posted by eaglefly
Perhaps I'm in need of education. Please help me understand the following;
Let me preface by saying that as far as AA buying another airline, aside from them being on the record they aren't interested in that and most analysts say that won't help them, there's really no one left to buy that has the infrastructure/assets they need, so I think that can be ruled out, so we're left with alterations to CC.
I'd like to understand how any change to CC results in a "slam dunk" DOH victory (or any senioirity change) ?
Let me preface by saying that as far as AA buying another airline, aside from them being on the record they aren't interested in that and most analysts say that won't help them, there's really no one left to buy that has the infrastructure/assets they need, so I think that can be ruled out, so we're left with alterations to CC.
I'd like to understand how any change to CC results in a "slam dunk" DOH victory (or any senioirity change) ?
In the case of AA/TWA, there was no TWA signature. Supp CC was foisted upon the TWA pilots and has nicknames of "cramdown" or "$hi+ sandwich." In exchange for the poor seniority list placement, certain protections were enacted for the TWA pilots through Supplement CC. The key phrase is:
Each and every provision of this Supplement CC is integral to the modified System Seniority List constructed pursuant to Section II. above, and shall remain in full force and effect and continue to apply in the event of a future seniority list integration arising from a subsequent acquisition, merger or other transaction affecting any pilots on the integrated modified System Seniority list; provided, that, subject to the above, this provision will not limit the integration of seniority lists in the event of said acquisition, merger or other transaction.
If any part of the Supplement is changed, it represents a liability to AA and APA. Now that APA is the collective barganing agent, they have a duty to represent. You can't just change the seniority rights of a particular group of pilots if they don't agree to it.
X
02-18-2011, 03:36 PM
#32
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Posts: 8,350
Originally Posted by X Rated
Most seniority list integrations have some sort of signature by each party stating that whatever the outcome--be it negotiated or arbitrated--that's what the list will be.
In the case of AA/TWA, there was no TWA signature. Supp CC was foisted upon the TWA pilots and has nicknames of "cramdown" or "$hi+ sandwich." In exchange for the poor seniority list placement, certain protections were enacted for the TWA pilots through Supplement CC. The key phrase is:
Each and every provision of this Supplement CC is integral to the modified System Seniority List constructed pursuant to Section II. above, and shall remain in full force and effect and continue to apply in the event of a future seniority list integration arising from a subsequent acquisition, merger or other transaction affecting any pilots on the integrated modified System Seniority list; provided, that, subject to the above, this provision will not limit the integration of seniority lists in the event of said acquisition, merger or other transaction.
If any part of the Supplement is changed, it represents a liability to AA and APA. Now that APA is the collective barganing agent, they have a duty to represent. You can't just change the seniority rights of a particular group of pilots if they don't agree to it.
X
In the case of AA/TWA, there was no TWA signature. Supp CC was foisted upon the TWA pilots and has nicknames of "cramdown" or "$hi+ sandwich." In exchange for the poor seniority list placement, certain protections were enacted for the TWA pilots through Supplement CC. The key phrase is:
Each and every provision of this Supplement CC is integral to the modified System Seniority List constructed pursuant to Section II. above, and shall remain in full force and effect and continue to apply in the event of a future seniority list integration arising from a subsequent acquisition, merger or other transaction affecting any pilots on the integrated modified System Seniority list; provided, that, subject to the above, this provision will not limit the integration of seniority lists in the event of said acquisition, merger or other transaction.
If any part of the Supplement is changed, it represents a liability to AA and APA. Now that APA is the collective barganing agent, they have a duty to represent. You can't just change the seniority rights of a particular group of pilots if they don't agree to it.
X
Sounds like just another DFR issue, just a different sub-segment of pilots.
It seems though that your bargaining rep (ALPA) signed off on this and unless a judgement against them for DFR is proved, I'd think that any chance of future AA seniority alteration to be hopeless. If ALPA settles (usually that involves no admission of wrongdoing), then TWA pilots take some cash (the lawyers probably most) or if the TWA group demands admission of guilt and wants to roll the dice (all or nothing) and get some admission of ALPA impropriety that would seem to required as foundation against the APA and AMR, they could end up with nothing but a stack of legal fees.
I'm still no closer to figuring out a scenario that will likely improve TWA pilots AA senioirty.
05-21-2011, 04:44 AM
#33
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Reading the Seham report was a real eye opener. If ALPA did what is stated in the report then I have a feeling the TWA pilots, absent a monetary award against ALPA and/or a leverage lawsuit against APA/American, would be very satisfied when all is done to stand atop the rubble that used to be a union called ALPA. Much success to every TWA pilot in getting what you deserve, and to ALPA/AA pilots I hope the TWA folks give you worse than you deserve.
05-21-2011, 05:22 AM
#34
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Originally Posted by expanam
Reading the Seham report was a real eye opener. If ALPA did what is stated in the report then I have a feeling the TWA pilots, absent a monetary award against ALPA and/or a leverage lawsuit against APA/American, would be very satisfied when all is done to stand atop the rubble that used to be a union called ALPA. Much success to every TWA pilot in getting what you deserve, and to ALPA/AA pilots I hope the TWA folks give you worse than you deserve.
Carl
05-21-2011, 06:55 AM
#36
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05-21-2011, 08:38 AM
#37
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Originally Posted by X Rated
A link to that was posted on your DPA thread. It should be required reading for every MEC Officer and makes the case for an alternative representational structure very clearly. It also explains a lot about our bankruptcy scope concessions.
05-21-2011, 08:57 AM
#38
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Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
Carl,
A link to that was posted on your DPA thread. It should be required reading for every MEC Officer and makes the case for an alternative representational structure very clearly. It also explains a lot about our bankruptcy scope concessions.
A link to that was posted on your DPA thread. It should be required reading for every MEC Officer and makes the case for an alternative representational structure very clearly. It also explains a lot about our bankruptcy scope concessions.
Carl
05-21-2011, 01:21 PM
#39
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Originally Posted by X Rated
Carl
05-23-2011, 06:18 AM
#40
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Posts: 13
Carl, sorry for the delay in responding to you. I am new to this site and have not gotten in the habit of checking it. I saw a link to the Seham report from a previous thread, but here is the link and what I read.
http://www.twapilot.org/TWA%20vs.%20...m%20Report.pdf.
Since reading this report I searched for other documents concerning the TWA pilots lawsuit against ALPA and came across something called "spoilation of evidence". I will try to find the link to it, but if I understand what I read it means ALPA destroyed the evidence the TWA pilots were requesting. Not a lawyer, but it seams if you have a lawsuit against you, then you better keep the evidence or it looks real bad when you destroy it.
http://www.twapilot.org/TWA%20vs.%20...m%20Report.pdf.
Since reading this report I searched for other documents concerning the TWA pilots lawsuit against ALPA and came across something called "spoilation of evidence". I will try to find the link to it, but if I understand what I read it means ALPA destroyed the evidence the TWA pilots were requesting. Not a lawyer, but it seams if you have a lawsuit against you, then you better keep the evidence or it looks real bad when you destroy it.
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