ALPA election and JetBlue
08-03-2011, 07:41 AM
#31
AAmerican Way for AA Pay
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: B-737 Pilot
Posts: 1,617
B6 pilots would be better off non-union than with ALPA. ALPA could no more protect B6 pilots in case of buyout/merger/acquisition than the Taliban deciding to convert to Christianity. Better off non-affiliated and get automatic, iron-clad labor protective provisions in case of merger/buyout than trust ALPA to do anything for them.
08-03-2011, 09:55 AM
#32
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: Passed out in my hammock
Posts: 299
Originally Posted by B757200ER
B6 pilots would be better off non-union than with ALPA. ALPA could no more protect B6 pilots in case of buyout/merger/acquisition than the Taliban deciding to convert to Christianity. Better off non-affiliated and get automatic, iron-clad labor protective provisions in case of merger/buyout than trust ALPA to do anything for them.
08-03-2011, 01:13 PM
#34
On Reserve
Joined APC: Jun 2011
Position: King Air Left
Posts: 16
Originally Posted by Cleared4Option
I also don't get to vote... I was hired on the other side of the turning in of the cards.
I do care with a lot of passion - this is going to affect my whole career.
I am very disappointed by the way that the whole election is being held. Every day I am subject to more and more propaganda then even during the height of the Obama-McCain election.
I have worked in graphic design... all of this copy, the emails, the posters... it's all coming from somewhere. And all of that work costs big bucks. A lot of money is being spent to 'protect' me... or at least that's what I am being told. (again, I don't get to vote... so no matter what happens, I can complain either way... a win/win) The part that I don't trust, is where someone tells me, (and spends lots of money one!) things that they are doing things for my interest, telling me they are protecting me out of my own interest. Wait! You are doing all of this for 'little ole' me'.... hmmm.... what's the catch? (I'm still asking myself that)
Here's my other problem: All of this propaganda says that the relationship that we have with the company is going to be thrown away if the union is voted in. It's like throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Does the company management think that I am not going to give my best and my all if a union is voted in? My own personal success in my career is tied to the success of the airline. I voted with my brain and my feet by coming here when I was offered a job... I am happy to be here and plan on spending the rest of my career here. I want to build a strong airline that lasts through my retirement and beyond. (since I would like to travel and bum around with my wife after I retire) I am still going to cross seatbelts, make PA's from the front, help customers, be a leader and the face of the company. I am proud to work here and I believe in the culture of the company... I want to bring humanity to air travel. I remember when there was humanity in air travel... I tried to do my level best when I was at the regionals to make every flight a great one of the passengers. It is wonderful to be at a airline where the culture supports this. I am proud to be in the trenches here.
I have been at both union (ALPA) an non-union carriers. I was treated better at a non-union carrier. At my non-union carrier I was treated like a professional - and when I had a grievance, it was handled professionally by my boss. When I screwed something up, they handled it with care and grace. When I needed time off, I got the time off to take care of my family problems. When I was being accused of untrue things (FA's gossiping to a client, trying to get me kicked out of a aircraft program) - my boss brought me into his office and said: "We can hire a FA out of a lineup at Starbucks, you have spent over ten years of hard work and sacrifice getting into your seat, we have your back." (and they did)
At my two ALPA carriers not so much... if I had a problem, I was told to grieve it. (then the committee sold the grievences for pennies on the dollar back to the company) When I had problems with management, ALPA didn't protect me. And at another carrier, it was my former ALPA rep, turned manager, that gave me a basically quasi-illegal 'warning' letter to sign from the company because the overwork and... what's that french word... Fat-i-gue was causing me to get sick every couple of months. Oh yeah, after ALPA national got all the props for negotiating a 'industry leading' contract for us... and their writeup in their magazine... the MEC started in with the givebacks.
So, am I a fan... not just no, but H-E-Double Hockey Sticks NO.
The problem, now... again... no vote for me, so I don't even get a say in my own future. But, if I did have a vote... the company is pushing me in to the Yes column with all of the propaganda. Because I know, as bad as it was... it was not all of the GLOOM and DOOM I'm being told.
I have to say that the campaign has failed. It took a guy like me and pushed him from the ambiguity column... right into the yes column. If I'm around for a base visit, and not running for a flight home, I will mention it. And tell my boss and my bosses boss... ad infinitum that hopefully they didn't follow bad advice from a bad playbook.
I do care with a lot of passion - this is going to affect my whole career.
I am very disappointed by the way that the whole election is being held. Every day I am subject to more and more propaganda then even during the height of the Obama-McCain election.
I have worked in graphic design... all of this copy, the emails, the posters... it's all coming from somewhere. And all of that work costs big bucks. A lot of money is being spent to 'protect' me... or at least that's what I am being told. (again, I don't get to vote... so no matter what happens, I can complain either way... a win/win) The part that I don't trust, is where someone tells me, (and spends lots of money one!) things that they are doing things for my interest, telling me they are protecting me out of my own interest. Wait! You are doing all of this for 'little ole' me'.... hmmm.... what's the catch? (I'm still asking myself that)
Here's my other problem: All of this propaganda says that the relationship that we have with the company is going to be thrown away if the union is voted in. It's like throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Does the company management think that I am not going to give my best and my all if a union is voted in? My own personal success in my career is tied to the success of the airline. I voted with my brain and my feet by coming here when I was offered a job... I am happy to be here and plan on spending the rest of my career here. I want to build a strong airline that lasts through my retirement and beyond. (since I would like to travel and bum around with my wife after I retire) I am still going to cross seatbelts, make PA's from the front, help customers, be a leader and the face of the company. I am proud to work here and I believe in the culture of the company... I want to bring humanity to air travel. I remember when there was humanity in air travel... I tried to do my level best when I was at the regionals to make every flight a great one of the passengers. It is wonderful to be at a airline where the culture supports this. I am proud to be in the trenches here.
I have been at both union (ALPA) an non-union carriers. I was treated better at a non-union carrier. At my non-union carrier I was treated like a professional - and when I had a grievance, it was handled professionally by my boss. When I screwed something up, they handled it with care and grace. When I needed time off, I got the time off to take care of my family problems. When I was being accused of untrue things (FA's gossiping to a client, trying to get me kicked out of a aircraft program) - my boss brought me into his office and said: "We can hire a FA out of a lineup at Starbucks, you have spent over ten years of hard work and sacrifice getting into your seat, we have your back." (and they did)
At my two ALPA carriers not so much... if I had a problem, I was told to grieve it. (then the committee sold the grievences for pennies on the dollar back to the company) When I had problems with management, ALPA didn't protect me. And at another carrier, it was my former ALPA rep, turned manager, that gave me a basically quasi-illegal 'warning' letter to sign from the company because the overwork and... what's that french word... Fat-i-gue was causing me to get sick every couple of months. Oh yeah, after ALPA national got all the props for negotiating a 'industry leading' contract for us... and their writeup in their magazine... the MEC started in with the givebacks.
So, am I a fan... not just no, but H-E-Double Hockey Sticks NO.
The problem, now... again... no vote for me, so I don't even get a say in my own future. But, if I did have a vote... the company is pushing me in to the Yes column with all of the propaganda. Because I know, as bad as it was... it was not all of the GLOOM and DOOM I'm being told.
I have to say that the campaign has failed. It took a guy like me and pushed him from the ambiguity column... right into the yes column. If I'm around for a base visit, and not running for a flight home, I will mention it. And tell my boss and my bosses boss... ad infinitum that hopefully they didn't follow bad advice from a bad playbook.
08-04-2011, 06:37 AM
#35
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2011
Position: B-737 Captain, IAH
Posts: 73
Originally Posted by B757200ER
B6 pilots would be better off non-union than with ALPA. ALPA could no more protect B6 pilots in case of buyout/merger/acquisition than the Taliban deciding to convert to Christianity. Better off non-affiliated and get automatic, iron-clad labor protective provisions in case of merger/buyout than trust ALPA to do anything for them.
Originally Posted by Fins Up
It's sad that despite what's going on with ALPA and TWA, plus the USAIR thing, that many of us here at JetBlue, me included, would feel more secure with a CBA via ALPA (again, the only currently available avenue) than trust what our company tells us about their intentions and our security. That says a lot about our current 'process'.
At post-1983 Continental, Don Breeding (VP of Flt. Ops.) instituted a concept (sham) that he called "participatory management." He told his Pilot Operations Group (a.k.a. The Student Council), "We're going to write what we can live with and then live with what we write." Out came the Pilot Employment Policy and the Pilot Scheduling Policy.
Then he proceed to violate it every time it fit the company's purposes, but enforce it against the pilots when he desired.
When you hear management use terms like "working with you directly" and "flexibility," this is what they have in mind.
08-04-2011, 07:33 AM
#36
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: Passed out in my hammock
Posts: 299
Originally Posted by DaveNelson
It's very simple. Do you want a contract or do you wish to continue working under company-imposed work rules that it can change any time it desires?
At post-1983 Continental, Don Breeding (VP of Flt. Ops.) instituted a concept (sham) that he called "participatory management." He told his Pilot Operations Group (a.k.a. The Student Council), "We're going to write what we can live with and then live with what we write." Out came the Pilot Employment Policy and the Pilot Scheduling Policy.
Then he proceed to violate it every time it fit the company's purposes, but enforce it against the pilots when he desired.
When you hear management use terms like "working with you directly" and "flexibility," this is what they have in mind.
At post-1983 Continental, Don Breeding (VP of Flt. Ops.) instituted a concept (sham) that he called "participatory management." He told his Pilot Operations Group (a.k.a. The Student Council), "We're going to write what we can live with and then live with what we write." Out came the Pilot Employment Policy and the Pilot Scheduling Policy.
Then he proceed to violate it every time it fit the company's purposes, but enforce it against the pilots when he desired.
When you hear management use terms like "working with you directly" and "flexibility," this is what they have in mind.
08-04-2011, 08:38 PM
#37
AAmerican Way for AA Pay
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: B-737 Pilot
Posts: 1,617
Don't Join!
Originally Posted by Fins Up
So given the opportunity you'd drop your CBA and go it alone?
08-05-2011, 06:29 AM
#38
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2011
Position: B-737 Captain, IAH
Posts: 73
Originally Posted by B757200ER
B6 isn't affiliated yet, so no. If I had a CBA---that's one thing, but if the choice was join ALPA (with their horrible record on mergers/buyouts/SLIs) or stay independent, I'd stay independent. The RLA protects non-affiliated carriers, but not ALPA carriers whose 'union' decides to sell them out for what they perceive is the greater common good.
In the non-union environment at CAL post-1985 though the inception of the IACP in 1993, the company instituted "pilot employment representatives" in each base. Basically, these were management pilots who masqueraded as pilot advocates and helped pilots prepare their "grievances" as part of the "problem-solving procedure" prescribed in the management-written Pilot Employment Policy. Because the RLA mandated some kind of grievance procedure, even at non-union carriers, this was the company's response. It was stacked against the pilot grievant.
The pilot would visit his "pilot employment representative," who would help him format the grievance. It would then go to the chief pilot, and was appealable through the director of flight operations to a three-man board that would contain an arbitrator. However, there was a trick.
One member of that three-person board was from management. The second was a representative of the Pilot Operations Group, a.k.a., the "Student Council." If those two split, an arbitrator was called in. However, often the Ops Group representative voted with management, and thus the company contained the grievance. Other times, the company would let the grievance actually go through, and from time-to-time, the pilot would "win" one against the company. Thus, the illusion was preserved.
Make no mistake: The company never let a potentially expensive grievance get to an arbitrator. Overturn a suspension or firing? Yes, it happened from time to time. Cost the company money? Never!
Now, if you're talking about "non-affiliated" as not being affiliated with ALPA or some other national union, that's a different matter. But as I understand it, Jet Blue's pilots turned down a bid to certify an in-house union a couple of years ago.
08-09-2011, 03:12 PM
#39
Line Holder
Joined APC: Aug 2011
Position: Golf cart, Left seat. Retired B-767/757
Posts: 67
JetBlue just say no
Originally Posted by johnso29
I love how people assume former TWA pilots are going to get a massive settlement which will bankrupt ALPA.
More important to the JetBlue pilots, why would you want ALPO to represent you in a merger? The jury has spoken and ALPO was found guilty of failing to provide representation to the TWA pilots. If the Blues expect better treatment for their dues I suggest they ask for help from Santa or the Easter Bunny. They have better records than Moak's boys.
08-09-2011, 03:48 PM
#40
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: Passed out in my hammock
Posts: 299
Originally Posted by TXHillCountry
More important to the JetBlue pilots, why would you want ALPO to represent you in a merger?
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