SuperConductor

My argument holds no water?? It holds the only water it has to; "it's unconstitutional".

I don't see anything but emotions over-flowing in this post. You have made no citations, no legal argument and brought no new material to light.

What about the damage done to one's credit, as you warned earlier? Up to 10 years? That seems quite the punishment. This probable restoration of Constitutional rights does not have the person filing for bankruptcy walking away Scott-free as you keep repeating.

I'm not saying that the rights afforded corporations and everybody else to escape debt, and what happens in the process is alright. No one is. But at least they've had their rights intact.

The bottom line is the US Constitution affords the same rights to EVERYONE under every law. What makes their debt so different than everybody else's debt? What makes students so much different than a retail consumer, or a venture capitalist? The answer: Nothing does. Under the 14th Amendment of the US Constitution, as US citizens, students are entitled to the same rights everyone else has, even if they are filing for something as ugly as bankruptcy. Bankruptcy is a Protection, and they are entitled to all the benefits under it as a Right. That is my opinion and the opinion of other practitioners of Constitutional Law.

SuperConductor

KC10 FATboy - Apparently I'm not as ridiculous as you think. 48 other House Representatives found to co-found a Bill allowing discharge of student loan debt in 2011.

Private Student Loan Bankruptcy Fairness Act of 2011 (H.R. 2028) - GovTrack.us

See. These are the kinds of educated arguments I'm looking for. Most of what I'm getting is just a bunch of radicalized anger and emotion.

JamesNoBrakes

It's so easy to make it sound as if we're advocating taking out tens of thousands of dollars worth of loans, and then blow them off on a whim, isn't it?

Let me ask a different question: Do you think there is ANY situation EVER where someone should be able to declare bankruptcy and either have loans discharged or restructured/partially forgiven/whatever it takes? Should we just send them to jail? Shoot them? What?

The double standard is downright laughable. And yes, we realize that businesses do not discharge all debts, we've been alive just barely long enough to figure this out I guess. And no, you can not discharge all of your student loans if it were to ever come to that, you can only discharge private loans. Federally backed loans are a different matter, that's where the "equal protection" thing comes in.

The whole idea is trying to build some accountability into the system. I realize this may be a difficult concept with airlines able to sell you out on a whim when it looks like they have to force concessions to keep operating and losing money, but there needs to be some accountability for lying, cheating, trying to get students to take out loans when they don't understand the ramifications. These guys are what, like 18? They don't have the choice to do this again if it goes bad, and if they don't have the information, should this be something that ruins their entire life? These are kids turned loose in a world where people much older are trying to take advantage of them. Where's the heart? No, it shouldn't be as easy as "oh, I'm out of money, I need to discharge my loans". No kidding, and if at all possible, IF someone has to declare bankruptcy, they should have to pay back as much as is possible in their circumstance, and bankruptcy should not be granted to all, just like scholarships shouldn't be granted to everyone Murkowskis deny involvement in getting family member scholarship | State News | ADN.com Just because you are a high performer doesn't mean you should get free money, there are a lot of high performers out there, and undoubtedly some that need it more than that governor's daughter.

If you don't agree that there should be reasonable recourse, then I hope your airline goes out of business and you lose your job. At the least I hope you take a huge paycut so your "dollars" can go to helping the business survive. Multiple bankruptcy is bad and businesses need to be accountable too, but there does need to be something out there to give a reasonable second chance IF certain criteria are met, and it shouldn't be for each and every case. Maybe at least I can appeal to your admiration of business, and if just a few students (that actually needed it) were able to discharge these debts, I bet accountability for lenders and schools would come REAL fast, as they wouldn't want to lose the money, even if it's the fed, federally backed, private, etc.

SuperConductor

Again, good thoughts JamesNoBreaks.

Okay so we've debated the pros, cons, moral and ethical implications of discharging debt. We've debated the Constitutional applicability of the XIV Amendment ad nauseum. You've all been heard. Respectfully and even not so respectfully, I've heard ya.

I've sent a message to my union regarding this concept. I've included this thread as reading material in addition to all these links and more. I got what I wanted: Arguments. As I'd stated at the top of this thread, as this last decade has yielded one wage and benefit concession after another, perhaps there are other ways to help the community which has found itself in "extreme financial difficulty". - Chesley Sullenberger before Congress

I made proposals on how to integrate the union effort into a grass roots movement capturing those who might not want to scream their financial situation to the world. Finally, I've included conceptual plans on how to hopefully galvanize a presence before Congress, to my Union. I'm still open to hearing more about Union integration with the initiative. But as for the ugliness of any entity's bankruptcy or alleged deprivation of Constitutional rights, lets move on.

KC10 FATboy

This is the last thing I want my union to get distracted with. There are much more pressing issues than wasting the dues collected by the masses to help protect the minority ignorant who can't manage their finances and who wrongly claim their constitutional rights have been violated.

My parting words for this thread ... A corporation can not have its debt discharged; whereas, an individual like yourself can. Constitutional?

HSLD

What union does business this way?

LarryDavid

What people need to do is their homework. Figure out how much you need to borrow, what your intrest rate will be, and you can easily figure out the payments roughly. You can then look at what the pay is as a CFI, Regional pilot, etc. With proper budgeting you should be able to know if you can pay things off or not. If you can't pay it off then don't get the loan or live with mom and dad until you can pay it off.

Sure crap happens and a lot of times you can renegoiate with your lender. I think you should be able to change your intrest rate and have some of the intrest payments forgiven. If circumstances warrant(layoff, family hardship, etc.)

I have flown with more than one pilot who had parents tell them to just put their flight training multiple CC's(when they we're handing them out like candy) and declare bankruptcy because a lot of the times a bank will just write it off. That is the problem of this entire country. People we're roaring drunk on credit and then wanted to be bailed out when they couldn't foot the bill. Not a way society should be, IMO.

JamesNoBrakes

And if you had a good idea how much you'd earn and how the industry really works prior to getting that loan, your post would make sense.

And if "the entire problem with this country" was really what you just said, we'd have a majority of people that had shed their flight training loans in bankruptcy, and you know that is not true. Hyperbole. I haven't flown with any pilots that have have done what you claim (yet), making it difficult to pin it as "the entire problem with this country".

Grumble

Easy, I don't belong to any union yet. Grew up in a union family. I'm still active mil.

Your turn, go!


We don't need any "material" or citations. You already have them. You know that contract you signed when you took out your student loans? That's all the legal argument anyone here needs. And as has been mentioned, numerous times, you are free to file BK (just like any company you're citing) and discharge your debt, just like them. Just like a company, there are somethings you may still be saddled with depending on what the court decides. Most likely it'll be your student loans.

SuperConductor

Beat ya to it.