CFI to UAL CPP
02-10-2018, 03:27 PM
#71
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Joined APC: Feb 2012
Position: 787
Posts: 3,174
Originally Posted by Floyd
You essentially made my point. They are hiring inexperienced pilots and then place them in the lap of the Captain. Even the best of Captains can get taxed if he finds himself single pilot in an extremely high workload environment.
We haven't begun to scrape the bottom of the pilot supply pool. So tell my why are we hiring CFI's and to whose benefit does it serve? The traveling public, the fellow pilots that share the cockpit or the airline? Something well beyond qualifications is driving the hiring metrics if this occurs.
We haven't begun to scrape the bottom of the pilot supply pool. So tell my why are we hiring CFI's and to whose benefit does it serve? The traveling public, the fellow pilots that share the cockpit or the airline? Something well beyond qualifications is driving the hiring metrics if this occurs.
Until we see a huge wave of CFIs filling our ranks I’m not going to raise the warning flag. To me this is no different than an intern getting hired at 21 years old. A few that get a lucky break. All of us could have been that intern, or these 2 CFIs but we took a different path. I’m sure not going to treat them any differently or look down on them just because they have no 121. As far as I’m concerned welcome to UA and wear your half wing beers on me.
02-10-2018, 03:36 PM
#72
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Joined APC: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,688
Originally Posted by Floyd
You essentially made my point. They are hiring inexperienced pilots and then place them in the lap of the Captain. Even the best of Captains can get taxed if he finds himself single pilot in an extremely high workload environment.
We haven't begun to scrape the bottom of the pilot supply pool. So tell my why are we hiring CFI's and to whose benefit does it serve? The traveling public, the fellow pilots that share the cockpit or the airline? Something well beyond qualifications is driving the hiring metrics if this occurs.
We haven't begun to scrape the bottom of the pilot supply pool. So tell my why are we hiring CFI's and to whose benefit does it serve? The traveling public, the fellow pilots that share the cockpit or the airline? Something well beyond qualifications is driving the hiring metrics if this occurs.
Originally Posted by Aquaticus
That regional pilot would also have to keep their nose clean in an airline environment for years before being competitive for a dream job. You might be able to pull off the circle to 29 but when you bust a PC, a letter of warning or two, have a reputation for not working well with other crewmembers, and a logbook that shows you only flew 400 hours with constant sick calls that dream job just went poof. These are untested applicants with no real life experience, no chance to refine interpersonal skills between crewmembers, and bring nothing to the flight deck other than their luck.
This just proves that United doesn't want the best pilots. They want meat in the seat that will put up with constant management BS.
This just proves that United doesn't want the best pilots. They want meat in the seat that will put up with constant management BS.
Originally Posted by MasterOfPuppets
Good argument and I agree with what you said. Never looked at it that way.
AGAIN, amazing the regional/mil/corp-frac/ACMI guy with thousands of accident/incident free hours and years of leadership experience can't get a first look.
Originally Posted by MasterOfPuppets
UA made a CPP deal at some point they are going to have to make good on their promise. Did you write your concerns to the MEC when this was announced?
If they did, the XJT one would have been fixed long ago.
02-10-2018, 03:44 PM
#73
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Joined APC: Feb 2012
Position: 787
Posts: 3,174
Originally Posted by John Carr
You like to come off as the smartest guy and Aquaticus had to point this all out to you?
I don’t know how much of a say the MEC has in the CPP but I doubt it is Zero. ALPAs job is to promote safety. If you feel unsafe tell them. They will address with the company.
02-10-2018, 03:51 PM
#74
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Joined APC: Mar 2017
Posts: 705
Originally Posted by MasterOfPuppets
UA made a CPP deal at some point they are going to have to make good on their promise. Did you write your concerns to the MEC when this was announced?
Until we see a huge wave of CFIs filling our ranks I’m not going to raise the warning flag. To me this is no different than an intern getting hired at 21 years old. A few that get a lucky break. All of us could have been that intern, or these 2 CFIs but we took a different path. I’m sure not going to treat them any differently or look down on them just because they have no 121. As far as I’m concerned welcome to UA and wear your half wing beers on me.
Until we see a huge wave of CFIs filling our ranks I’m not going to raise the warning flag. To me this is no different than an intern getting hired at 21 years old. A few that get a lucky break. All of us could have been that intern, or these 2 CFIs but we took a different path. I’m sure not going to treat them any differently or look down on them just because they have no 121. As far as I’m concerned welcome to UA and wear your half wing beers on me.
What, the huge hiring wave raises the law of averages an then it becomes concerning? Concerning begins at a point in time when the Captain needs to call on the experience of the pilot to his right and it isn't there. That can occur with the 1st hired or the 901st.
I treat people like human beings trying to live their life. I certainly wouldn't treat them differently but I'm sure as hell not going to put them in a position, PF or PM, they can't handle. The passengers at the very least deserve this.
This is well beyond being cool and free beers. My curiosity is still raised as to why we hire a CFI vs give consideration to those with exponentially more experience.
02-10-2018, 03:52 PM
#75
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Joined APC: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,688
Originally Posted by MasterOfPuppets
I don’t know how much of a say the MEC has in the CPP but I doubt it is Zero. ALPAs job is to promote safety. If you feel unsafe tell them. They will address with the company.
02-10-2018, 03:53 PM
#76
Line Holder
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Posts: 27
Pilot supply for the future
1) lots of qualified applicants at this moment
2) ^1 won’t always be true
3) to prepare for the future (which UAL isn’t always great at!), mechanisms need to be put in place and Tested Now to ensure safe & trainable pilots for our flight decks
4) L-ATCA is a very small part of this plan using thoroughly vetted applicants who were also UAL interns
2) ^1 won’t always be true
3) to prepare for the future (which UAL isn’t always great at!), mechanisms need to be put in place and Tested Now to ensure safe & trainable pilots for our flight decks
4) L-ATCA is a very small part of this plan using thoroughly vetted applicants who were also UAL interns
02-10-2018, 04:04 PM
#77
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Joined APC: Feb 2012
Position: 787
Posts: 3,174
Originally Posted by Floyd
Comparing a CPP from a regional to hiring a CFI is apples to oranges. One has at least a modicum of experience, the other does not.
What, the huge hiring wave raises the law of averages an then it becomes concerning? Concerning begins at a point in time when the Captain needs to call on the experience of the pilot to his right and it isn't there. That can occur with the 1st hired or the 901st.
I treat people like human beings trying to live their life. I certainly wouldn't treat them differently but I'm sure as hell not going to put them in a position, PF or PM, they can't handle. The passengers at the very least deserve this.
This is well beyond being cool and free beers. My curiosity is still raised as to why we hire a CFI vs give consideration to those with exponentially more experience.
What, the huge hiring wave raises the law of averages an then it becomes concerning? Concerning begins at a point in time when the Captain needs to call on the experience of the pilot to his right and it isn't there. That can occur with the 1st hired or the 901st.
I treat people like human beings trying to live their life. I certainly wouldn't treat them differently but I'm sure as hell not going to put them in a position, PF or PM, they can't handle. The passengers at the very least deserve this.
This is well beyond being cool and free beers. My curiosity is still raised as to why we hire a CFI vs give consideration to those with exponentially more experience.
I agree the passengers do deserve a safe flight and it’s the CAs job to assess any situation and make the best decision. What is your plan though? are you going to ask every FO if they are CFI CPP? What if on day 3 during casual conversation you find out they are from the CFI CPP? Are you all the sudden going to be extra vigilant?
There is no reason to be upset until we see how this goes. If it is horrible than we can use the union to shut it down. ALPA Pilots still have a say in who we hire, and a pilot can still get fired on probation.
02-10-2018, 04:08 PM
#78
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Joined APC: Feb 2012
Position: 787
Posts: 3,174
Originally Posted by John Carr
You know not what you don't.
If I didn’t value your opinion I would have already blocked you. You post good stuff. I read what you have to say in the ExpressJet forum and this one.
02-10-2018, 04:12 PM
#79
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Joined APC: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,688
Originally Posted by MasterOfPuppets
Then fill me in instead of just trying to get under my skin.
If I didn’t value your opinion I would have already blocked you. You post good stuff. I read what you have to say in the ExpressJet forum and this one.
If I didn’t value your opinion I would have already blocked you. You post good stuff. I read what you have to say in the ExpressJet forum and this one.
But to say they've been responsible for the marginally better success rate would be a stretch.
02-10-2018, 04:44 PM
#80
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Joined APC: Feb 2012
Position: 787
Posts: 3,174
Originally Posted by John Carr
Our MEC wasn't happy how the CPP went. Actually, our MEC was clueless about it for roughly the first 6 months.
But to say they've been responsible for the marginally better success rate would be a stretch.
But to say they've been responsible for the marginally better success rate would be a stretch.
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