Fleet plan
07-09-2017 | 10:03 AM
#81
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,639
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Nope.
But without a collective bargaining agreement with actual protections the JB pilot group is seriously disadvantaged in a merger with any legacy airline. It's not just a UAL issue. Without a CBA with solid successorship language it would be trivially easy to complete a non-operational acquisition of JB assets and offer "job opportunities" to selected JB employees, if even that. That's the stick that any legacy has in working out a deal with JB.
Voting ALPA was a major step forward for JB pilots but the ball is not across the line (yet) and the "status quo" employment agreements were specifically written to both disadvantage JB pilots and make JB more valuable as an acquisition target.
But without a collective bargaining agreement with actual protections the JB pilot group is seriously disadvantaged in a merger with any legacy airline. It's not just a UAL issue. Without a CBA with solid successorship language it would be trivially easy to complete a non-operational acquisition of JB assets and offer "job opportunities" to selected JB employees, if even that. That's the stick that any legacy has in working out a deal with JB.
Voting ALPA was a major step forward for JB pilots but the ball is not across the line (yet) and the "status quo" employment agreements were specifically written to both disadvantage JB pilots and make JB more valuable as an acquisition target.
07-09-2017 | 10:07 AM
#82
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,255
Likes: 50
From: 190 captain and “Pro-pilot”
07-09-2017 | 10:08 AM
#83
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,255
Likes: 50
From: 190 captain and “Pro-pilot”
Nope.
But without a collective bargaining agreement with actual protections the JB pilot group is seriously disadvantaged in a merger with any legacy airline. It's not just a UAL issue.
Voting ALPA was a major step forward for JB pilots but the ball is not across the line.
But without a collective bargaining agreement with actual protections the JB pilot group is seriously disadvantaged in a merger with any legacy airline. It's not just a UAL issue.
Voting ALPA was a major step forward for JB pilots but the ball is not across the line.
We are pushing and the above was a big reason why.
07-09-2017 | 10:20 AM
#84
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Oct 2010
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I left JB exactly 10 years ago and was quite vocal about this issue before departing.
Thus, I'm mildly conflicted.
On one hand I feel really bad for my friends there, and especially the ones that have been fighting the good fight, while on the other hand I don't have much sympathy for a pilot group that has literally squandered a decade.
This is not a new achilles heel.
07-09-2017 | 10:32 AM
#85
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,255
Likes: 50
From: 190 captain and “Pro-pilot”
Yup.
I left JB exactly 10 years ago and was quite vocal about this issue before departing.
Thus, I'm mildly conflicted.
On one hand I feel really bad for my friends there, and especially the ones that have been fighting the good fight, while on the other hand I don't have much sympathy for a pilot group that has literally squandered a decade.
This is not a new achilles heel.
I left JB exactly 10 years ago and was quite vocal about this issue before departing.
Thus, I'm mildly conflicted.
On one hand I feel really bad for my friends there, and especially the ones that have been fighting the good fight, while on the other hand I don't have much sympathy for a pilot group that has literally squandered a decade.
This is not a new achilles heel.
2011 DOH voted yes first chance I could.
There are plenty of guys who have been fighting before I got here so it wouldn't be fair to punish a whole group because of a few. I hope this rally is a good shot at our mgt and we can get that CBA. I feel we will buy someone(we already tried) or be bought so we need it done now.
07-09-2017 | 06:22 PM
#87
UCH Pilot
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 776
Likes: 1
From: 787
Ooh.. I want to play since I mis-predicted the UAL/CAL seniority list so badly. I thought the arbitrators would split the two proposals. Maybe I'll get this one right.
Based on our ALPA Merger, JB #1 pilot would be about 3,000 on the "status and category only" list, since that's how many 757,767,777,787 Captains we have at United. A 1999 hire would be slotted in at 8,000 on the "Longevity only" list. So if JB had career expectations and current pay equal to United, and they applied the UAL/CAL merger model, and 50% weighting was used for each, the #1 JB Captain would be slotted in about 5,500.
Then after about the number of Jet Blue Captains were placed on the list (10 for 1 or something like that), they would have to skip another 3,500 down the list, since that would represent 757,767,777, and 787 FOs that aren't available to JB pilots right now. By that time, you'd be at the bottom and many FOs would be stapled.
But since it would be a windfall to all of a sudden have the UAL contract and be able to based out of numerous bases that didn't exist before, and have access to WB at some point, then JB Capt #1 is likely going in around 7,000 to 8,000 and by the time the last one is on the list, you are very close to the bottom with a big old staple job for the FOs.
Especially since a lot of pilots have left JB to come to United.
Look at SWA/AirTran and SWA didn't have 6,000 WB Capt/FO jobs. It was almost solely based on the superior contract.
But I agree, not going to happen.
Based on our ALPA Merger, JB #1 pilot would be about 3,000 on the "status and category only" list, since that's how many 757,767,777,787 Captains we have at United. A 1999 hire would be slotted in at 8,000 on the "Longevity only" list. So if JB had career expectations and current pay equal to United, and they applied the UAL/CAL merger model, and 50% weighting was used for each, the #1 JB Captain would be slotted in about 5,500.
Then after about the number of Jet Blue Captains were placed on the list (10 for 1 or something like that), they would have to skip another 3,500 down the list, since that would represent 757,767,777, and 787 FOs that aren't available to JB pilots right now. By that time, you'd be at the bottom and many FOs would be stapled.
But since it would be a windfall to all of a sudden have the UAL contract and be able to based out of numerous bases that didn't exist before, and have access to WB at some point, then JB Capt #1 is likely going in around 7,000 to 8,000 and by the time the last one is on the list, you are very close to the bottom with a big old staple job for the FOs.
Especially since a lot of pilots have left JB to come to United.
Look at SWA/AirTran and SWA didn't have 6,000 WB Capt/FO jobs. It was almost solely based on the superior contract.
But I agree, not going to happen.
07-09-2017 | 06:33 PM
#88
Line Holder
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,155
Likes: 24
Ooh.. I want to play since I mis-predicted the UAL/CAL seniority list so badly. I thought the arbitrators would split the two proposals. Maybe I'll get this one right.
Based on our ALPA Merger, JB #1 pilot would be about 3,000 on the "status and category only" list, since that's how many 757,767,777,787 Captains we have at United. A 1999 hire would be slotted in at 8,000 on the "Longevity only" list. So if JB had career expectations and current pay equal to United, and they applied the UAL/CAL merger model, and 50% weighting was used for each, the #1 JB Captain would be slotted in about 5,500.
Then after about the number of Jet Blue Captains were placed on the list (10 for 1 or something like that), they would have to skip another 3,500 down the list, since that would represent 757,767,777, and 787 FOs that aren't available to JB pilots right now. By that time, you'd be at the bottom and many FOs would be stapled.
But since it would be a windfall to all of a sudden have the UAL contract and be able to based out of numerous bases that didn't exist before, and have access to WB at some point, then JB Capt #1 is likely going in around 7,000 to 8,000 and by the time the last one is on the list, you are very close to the bottom with a big old staple job for the FOs.
Especially since a lot of pilots have left JB to come to United.
Look at SWA/AirTran and SWA didn't have 6,000 WB Capt/FO jobs. It was almost solely based on the superior contract.
But I agree, not going to happen.
Based on our ALPA Merger, JB #1 pilot would be about 3,000 on the "status and category only" list, since that's how many 757,767,777,787 Captains we have at United. A 1999 hire would be slotted in at 8,000 on the "Longevity only" list. So if JB had career expectations and current pay equal to United, and they applied the UAL/CAL merger model, and 50% weighting was used for each, the #1 JB Captain would be slotted in about 5,500.
Then after about the number of Jet Blue Captains were placed on the list (10 for 1 or something like that), they would have to skip another 3,500 down the list, since that would represent 757,767,777, and 787 FOs that aren't available to JB pilots right now. By that time, you'd be at the bottom and many FOs would be stapled.
But since it would be a windfall to all of a sudden have the UAL contract and be able to based out of numerous bases that didn't exist before, and have access to WB at some point, then JB Capt #1 is likely going in around 7,000 to 8,000 and by the time the last one is on the list, you are very close to the bottom with a big old staple job for the FOs.
Especially since a lot of pilots have left JB to come to United.
Look at SWA/AirTran and SWA didn't have 6,000 WB Capt/FO jobs. It was almost solely based on the superior contract.
But I agree, not going to happen.
Also, there wouldn't be any stapling of JB FOs. They'd be slotted in based on cat/class and % of longevity agreed upon/arbitrated.
07-09-2017 | 06:38 PM
#89
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 5,508
Likes: 109
Ooh.. I want to play since I mis-predicted the UAL/CAL seniority list so badly. I thought the arbitrators would split the two proposals. Maybe I'll get this one right.
Based on our ALPA Merger, JB #1 pilot would be about 3,000 on the "status and category only" list, since that's how many 757,767,777,787 Captains we have at United. A 1999 hire would be slotted in at 8,000 on the "Longevity only" list. So if JB had career expectations and current pay equal to United, and they applied the UAL/CAL merger model, and 50% weighting was used for each, the #1 JB Captain would be slotted in about 5,500.
Then after about the number of Jet Blue Captains were placed on the list (10 for 1 or something like that), they would have to skip another 3,500 down the list, since that would represent 757,767,777, and 787 FOs that aren't available to JB pilots right now. By that time, you'd be at the bottom and many FOs would be stapled.
But since it would be a windfall to all of a sudden have the UAL contract and be able to based out of numerous bases that didn't exist before, and have access to WB at some point, then JB Capt #1 is likely going in around 7,000 to 8,000 and by the time the last one is on the list, you are very close to the bottom with a big old staple job for the FOs.
Especially since a lot of pilots have left JB to come to United.
Look at SWA/AirTran and SWA didn't have 6,000 WB Capt/FO jobs. It was almost solely based on the superior contract.
But I agree, not going to happen.
Based on our ALPA Merger, JB #1 pilot would be about 3,000 on the "status and category only" list, since that's how many 757,767,777,787 Captains we have at United. A 1999 hire would be slotted in at 8,000 on the "Longevity only" list. So if JB had career expectations and current pay equal to United, and they applied the UAL/CAL merger model, and 50% weighting was used for each, the #1 JB Captain would be slotted in about 5,500.
Then after about the number of Jet Blue Captains were placed on the list (10 for 1 or something like that), they would have to skip another 3,500 down the list, since that would represent 757,767,777, and 787 FOs that aren't available to JB pilots right now. By that time, you'd be at the bottom and many FOs would be stapled.
But since it would be a windfall to all of a sudden have the UAL contract and be able to based out of numerous bases that didn't exist before, and have access to WB at some point, then JB Capt #1 is likely going in around 7,000 to 8,000 and by the time the last one is on the list, you are very close to the bottom with a big old staple job for the FOs.
Especially since a lot of pilots have left JB to come to United.
Look at SWA/AirTran and SWA didn't have 6,000 WB Capt/FO jobs. It was almost solely based on the superior contract.
But I agree, not going to happen.
Some kind of fence seems to be the answer barring a straight staple job. There has to be a means by which everyone keeps their seats/QOL (pay windfall for the acquired group not withstanding) but no premerger (insert LCC merged pilot group) is awarded above a narrow body until the last UAL pilot is... It would have to be in such a fashion as to avoid the flood gate/displacement situation that has played out with the UAL/CAL merger. Not sure how you do that.
JB/UAL, if they could get away with it... would be a monster of a carrier.
07-09-2017 | 07:14 PM
#90
UCH Pilot
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 776
Likes: 1
From: 787
Closer, but still not it. Go back and look at the % of longevity awarded over the last 3-4 big mergers. They didn't average anywhere near 50%.
Also, there wouldn't be any stapling of JB FOs. They'd be slotted in based on cat/class and % of longevity agreed upon/arbitrated.
Also, there wouldn't be any stapling of JB FOs. They'd be slotted in based on cat/class and % of longevity agreed upon/arbitrated.
AMR/USAir aren't ALPA. There has only been 1 MAJOR airline merger under the new policy. UAL/CAL and it was 35% longevity. You can look at the last 3-4, but some of them were under the OLD policy.
Didn't really like the longevity component for the last merger, but I'm liking it more and more every day, especially with the Spirit/JB/et.al. airlines becoming ALPA.
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