MEC Chairman's Message - Early Section 6
11-02-2017, 05:52 AM
#231
Not at work
Joined APC: Oct 2014
Position: 737 ca
Posts: 293
As an 06 cal hire I can say, who gives a crap anymore? As soon as the sen list was done and contract finished it was time to move on. I have been bumped , bumped again and almost bumped again. Still doing alot better than I was. Those of you that even think with an "L" thought process need to just get over it. So tired of listening to people whine about how I should have gotten more... Mine was better mine was bigger. My operating cert survived and yours didn't... Who gives a rats ass.
11-02-2017, 06:36 AM
#234
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,315
[QUOTE=Zoomie;2459104]Backward looking... those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.
You are in a honeymoon period. Guys at United have gotten such a good deal in the merger, they think everything is roses and lollipops. You have had such bad luck since 2001, you don’t realize that where we are now, while good, isn’t close to where we could be. We still have so much potential and it’s being squandered.
As for your questions, I don’t know why u would ask rhetorical questions on a forum so I’ll answer them anyway.
1). What airline has shrunk or stayed the same size since 2009? None of them. They have all merged or grown. If United merged with USAir, AA would have merged with AA. It’s that simple. Heck, CAL may have even been able to get Virgin or Alaska out of the deal. The Point is, no one knows. I am 100% sure CAL would have either been bigger through growth or by merger. It doesn’t matter anymore though. CAL had growth plans. 25 787s which would have been delivered prior to the merger, but because Boeing couldn’t get its act together, they didn’t show up till later.
How are those A350s that United ordered b4 the merger...? Almost Vaporware. I’d like to see us take delivery, but it will most likely never happen. Again, an exercise in futility as none of this matters. What I don’t like is the revisionist history. United practically begged for a merger with CAL. CAL on the other hand wished it would stay standalone. It doesn’t matter now.
2). Yes, absolutely. And AA would have merged with CAL. No one thought that AA would merge with USAir, but they did eventually.
3). Smisek said what he needed to say to make the merger happen. His job depended on it. What would you expect him to say? The only reason he got the job was to bring the merger to fruition.
What airline has gone out of business since 2010? None in the US...only mergers and growth. CAL would have been fine stand-alone, just like AA and USAir was b4 their merger. Alaska and Virgin were doing just fine standalone. Will they do better merged? Probably. No airline right now is having any issue growing, except United. United says it will grow and investors flee. DL doesn’t say a thing but expands over the last 8 years and investors love them.
To keep things correct Delta has not expanded much over the last 8 years. International has been flat to a small increase. Domestic has seen a small increase generally less than 2% a year. What Delta has done is transfer regional flying back to the mainline which has generated mainline pilot jobs. Wall Street however does not consider that growth since the flying remains in the Delta system.
UAL has expanded into saturated markets without any reduction in regional flying. They have also on the international front expanded into the Far East where there is a glut of capacity and ugly yields.
You are in a honeymoon period. Guys at United have gotten such a good deal in the merger, they think everything is roses and lollipops. You have had such bad luck since 2001, you don’t realize that where we are now, while good, isn’t close to where we could be. We still have so much potential and it’s being squandered.
As for your questions, I don’t know why u would ask rhetorical questions on a forum so I’ll answer them anyway.
1). What airline has shrunk or stayed the same size since 2009? None of them. They have all merged or grown. If United merged with USAir, AA would have merged with AA. It’s that simple. Heck, CAL may have even been able to get Virgin or Alaska out of the deal. The Point is, no one knows. I am 100% sure CAL would have either been bigger through growth or by merger. It doesn’t matter anymore though. CAL had growth plans. 25 787s which would have been delivered prior to the merger, but because Boeing couldn’t get its act together, they didn’t show up till later.
How are those A350s that United ordered b4 the merger...? Almost Vaporware. I’d like to see us take delivery, but it will most likely never happen. Again, an exercise in futility as none of this matters. What I don’t like is the revisionist history. United practically begged for a merger with CAL. CAL on the other hand wished it would stay standalone. It doesn’t matter now.
2). Yes, absolutely. And AA would have merged with CAL. No one thought that AA would merge with USAir, but they did eventually.
3). Smisek said what he needed to say to make the merger happen. His job depended on it. What would you expect him to say? The only reason he got the job was to bring the merger to fruition.
What airline has gone out of business since 2010? None in the US...only mergers and growth. CAL would have been fine stand-alone, just like AA and USAir was b4 their merger. Alaska and Virgin were doing just fine standalone. Will they do better merged? Probably. No airline right now is having any issue growing, except United. United says it will grow and investors flee. DL doesn’t say a thing but expands over the last 8 years and investors love them.
To keep things correct Delta has not expanded much over the last 8 years. International has been flat to a small increase. Domestic has seen a small increase generally less than 2% a year. What Delta has done is transfer regional flying back to the mainline which has generated mainline pilot jobs. Wall Street however does not consider that growth since the flying remains in the Delta system.
UAL has expanded into saturated markets without any reduction in regional flying. They have also on the international front expanded into the Far East where there is a glut of capacity and ugly yields.
11-02-2017, 07:13 AM
#235
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2009
Posts: 5,199
UAL/CAL had to happen.
UAL had all the cash but needed to retool.
CAL had newer planes on order and no way to pay for them.
There was almost zero route over lap between them.
After NWA/DAL it was merge or die. UAL and CAL were two puzzle pieces that fit perfectly, unfortunately Smisek smashed them together with a hammer like a special ed kid.
UAL had all the cash but needed to retool.
CAL had newer planes on order and no way to pay for them.
There was almost zero route over lap between them.
After NWA/DAL it was merge or die. UAL and CAL were two puzzle pieces that fit perfectly, unfortunately Smisek smashed them together with a hammer like a special ed kid.
11-02-2017, 07:13 AM
#236
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,833
Originally Posted by blockplus
As an 06 cal hire I can say, who gives a crap anymore? As soon as the sen list was done and contract finished it was time to move on. I have been bumped , bumped again and almost bumped again. Still doing alot better than I was. Those of you that even think with an "L" thought process need to just get over it. So tired of listening to people whine about how I should have gotten more... Mine was better mine was bigger. My operating cert survived and yours didn't... Who gives a rats ass.
Most of us decide to live in the present and don’t DGAF about people who read tea leaves of the past.......... moved on since the date the SLI dropped
11-02-2017, 07:28 AM
#237
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 403
Originally Posted by Sunvox
To which "suck" are you referring? For me there is no suck except "revisionist history". I think the merger was a boon to the industry and my career, and I'm glad we merged,
but . . .
I had a CAL 2005 hire the other day tell me she hated my guts because I ruined her career. I am tired of people like Zoomie making up a story that just isn't true, and I reserve the right to "kill 'em with facts" even if they don't want to accept those facts.
This is an internet forum that has no purpose other than entertainment. At the moment I'm entertained by my posting if you are not then please feel free to put me on ignore or just don't read it.
but . . .
I had a CAL 2005 hire the other day tell me she hated my guts because I ruined her career. I am tired of people like Zoomie making up a story that just isn't true, and I reserve the right to "kill 'em with facts" even if they don't want to accept those facts.
This is an internet forum that has no purpose other than entertainment. At the moment I'm entertained by my posting if you are not then please feel free to put me on ignore or just don't read it.
I have a retort to your "facts", but I will refrain. It's funny how these "facts" are again driven by analysis and testimony by Smisek, of all people. Do you trust our new leader, Kirby? Do you post his picture on your wall, or better yet, the wallpaper on your iPad?
In the words of Maui, from the Disney movie, "What can I say, except you're welcome..."
UAL guys got their careers back on track after the SLI, which I am happy for them. Nobody refutes that UAL guys got screwed before the merger. I will also concede that had the SLI gone the other direction in CALs favor, I think many UAL guys would have been happy to burn the place to the ground. So, even though it was lopsided, it was probably the only way that a successful company could have emerged. Therefore, I don't even want the SLI changed if I could.
As for the bottom 50% of CAL guys, we got screwed. We didn't get screwed as bad as the double furloughees, but we did get screwed.
The screwjob came from within our union, not from management. No, ALPA didn't make the SLI, they just changed the ALPA merger policy a year before the merger because they knew they couldn't afford to lose another ALPA carrier the way they did with US Air.
CAL guys didn't go backwards, but we just got over the stagnation effects of age 65, just to feel another 5 years of stagnation due to the SLI.
Now, when things were about to start moving again last year, Kirby shows up and halts movement for again. So have some perspective and realize that UAL guys got a much better deal from the merger than the CAL guys. Do you refute that? Do you think CAL people should be "thanking" mighty UAL. Just say thank you to that CAL 05 hire next time. That's probably all she wanted. (That's sarcasm and tounge in cheek. I don't really think anyone at L-UAL should thank CAL guys, just have some perspective that CAL people have stagnated going on 11 years now since age 65 passed). UAL guys started moving forward at breakneck speed after the merger while CAL guys watched guys who were reserve FOs for 10 years make CA 6 months after SLI. Meanwhile, guys at CAL who were 6 month from CA upgrade had to wait another 5 years to upgrade or upgrade and sat 5 years at 100% on reserve. What I'm trying to explain here is the perspective. It doesn't matter if you even believe it's true, but its the reality of what people believe.
No one knows what would have happened had we stayed separate. It doesn't matter.
Let's move forward, but please save the sunshine and rainbows smoke blowing for when we actually "compete" with DL or AA or SWA. We have a plan, according to management, but the rumor is the plan involves "scope" relief. If our new leader is banking on scope relief to put his plan into effect, we are screwed either way. Either he gets the scope relief he wants (which won't be good for most of us or the industry), or he doesn't get the relief. If he doesn't get the relief and his plan is banking on the relief, then we'll be another 3-4 years behind DL when they get their CS100s or whatever they end up getting while we "wait" for some used Airbii that never unfold.
It doesn't appear that DL or SWA or AA are waiting for scope relief at their companies to move forward. Why are we?
11-02-2017, 07:33 AM
#238
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 403
Originally Posted by sailingfun
To keep things correct Delta has not expanded much over the last 8 years. International has been flat to a small increase. Domestic has seen a small increase generally less than 2% a year. What Delta has done is transfer regional flying back to the mainline which has generated mainline pilot jobs. Wall Street however does not consider that growth since the flying remains in the Delta system.
UAL has expanded into saturated markets without any reduction in regional flying. They have also on the international front expanded into the Far East where there is a glut of capacity and ugly yields.
UAL has expanded into saturated markets without any reduction in regional flying. They have also on the international front expanded into the Far East where there is a glut of capacity and ugly yields.
11-02-2017, 01:35 PM
#239
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,803
Originally Posted by Zoomie
As for the bottom 50% of CAL guys, we got screwed. We didn't get screwed as bad as the double furloughees, but we did get screwed.
The screwjob came from within our union, not from management. No, ALPA didn't make the SLI, they just changed the ALPA merger policy a year before the merger because they knew they couldn't afford to lose another ALPA carrier the way they did with US Air.
CAL guys didn't go backwards, but we just got over the stagnation effects of age 65, just to feel another 5 years of stagnation due to the SLI.
The screwjob came from within our union, not from management. No, ALPA didn't make the SLI, they just changed the ALPA merger policy a year before the merger because they knew they couldn't afford to lose another ALPA carrier the way they did with US Air.
CAL guys didn't go backwards, but we just got over the stagnation effects of age 65, just to feel another 5 years of stagnation due to the SLI.
11-02-2017, 03:26 PM
#240
Banned
Joined APC: May 2017
Position: CA
Posts: 320
UAL CAL merger was the best thing to happen to both pilot groups, better company, stronger financially, better route system, better contract, better pay and retirement, stronger fleet, better route network. Stop being little snowflake bitc$&S and grow up get over it. It's done and we are all wealthier and more stable career wise because of it. Industries change, business changes, life changes embrace it or be left behind. Not one person on our list would be better off if we were two separate airlines in today's economy. Grow up and deal with it.
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