United Pilot’s Openers
04-01-2018 | 11:44 AM
#101
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,213
Likes: 14
From: guppy CA
Exactly how would the DAL model be bad for SL hoarders? They can’t sell it back. If they blow one ACL or shoulder it’s gone and paid the same as someone who has their 240 hrs. And you both start up next yr with 240.
We need a better LTD plan other than hoarding SL that you give back for free when you retire.
We need a better LTD plan other than hoarding SL that you give back for free when you retire.
For someone with a lot of sick bank, they could opt to not start collecting LTD at the end of 90 days and continue to use SL. This would allow an individual to receive the company contribution into their 401K, RHA VEBA, and get credit toward annual Profit Sharing. When you're out on LTD, you don't accrue 401K contributions, RHA VEBA, or PS.
You also cannot make personal contributions to your 401K while on LTD so there are several advantages to not collecting LTD immediately at the 90 day point if you have a large sick bank. And you accrue sick leave while out on sick leave, but you don't accrue sick leave while out on LTD. The rapid accrual upon return also favors burning SL past 90 days.
There are a number of ways to improve our SL/LTD package, but I don't know if Delta's package is the way to go. In all, our SL package isn't all that bad - when one's younger, they tend to not get sick. That allows them to build up a decent sick bank for when they hit their 50s/60s and are sick more often.
04-01-2018 | 11:49 AM
#102
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,213
Likes: 14
From: guppy CA
I think we’re taking past each other a little bit. My point is that if the company had their way, they would start and end with a dollar value that they were willing to spend. They ALWAYS end up spending more.
Why? It’s because we push them beyond what they say they want to spend. That’s the negotiators job. Some things, as you mentioned, can be horse traded. Others, are just gonna cost money. That’s the bottom line. And we should remember that the next time a suit tries to tell us that it’s a zero sum negotiation. Because it isn’t.
Why? It’s because we push them beyond what they say they want to spend. That’s the negotiators job. Some things, as you mentioned, can be horse traded. Others, are just gonna cost money. That’s the bottom line. And we should remember that the next time a suit tries to tell us that it’s a zero sum negotiation. Because it isn’t.
Along those same lines, I hate seeing negotiations drag on for a couple of years for just a few extra pennies.
04-01-2018 | 12:36 PM
#103
Line Holder
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 1,374
Likes: 54
The pie is worth X. Even the ALPA negotiators will tell you that. I understand that the negotiators will try to get more pie, but which flavor of more pie is best to go for once the two sides are 'close'? Which benefit? Or simply more pay?
There absolutely is horse trading on improvements. It's ALPA negotiators' job to find which combination yields the best overall compensation package from the company. It's the company's job to get a new contract passed by the rank and file at the least cost to the company.
Here's the rub with benefits. The company generally places a higher cost on benefits than pilots. And each pilot will have a different value for each benefit. Does a senior lineholder care about reserve rules?
Pay vs work rules is not defeatist; it's reality. The company isn't going to offer us $1000/hr and also the top benefit package in the industry. It doesn't work that way. Benefits cost money and it's all part of our total compensation package. We can choke the goose to give us more golden eggs, but there is not an unlimited supply of golden eggs.
We'll all fill out ALPA contract surveys and both sides' negotiators will negotiate a new contract. That's about all we rank and file can do - fill out surveys on what's most important to us. It doesn't even matter that you think my view toward these negotiations is defeatist; I will have near zero influence on the outcome (the only minor impact I will have is filling out the contract survey).
There absolutely is horse trading on improvements. It's ALPA negotiators' job to find which combination yields the best overall compensation package from the company. It's the company's job to get a new contract passed by the rank and file at the least cost to the company.
Here's the rub with benefits. The company generally places a higher cost on benefits than pilots. And each pilot will have a different value for each benefit. Does a senior lineholder care about reserve rules?
Pay vs work rules is not defeatist; it's reality. The company isn't going to offer us $1000/hr and also the top benefit package in the industry. It doesn't work that way. Benefits cost money and it's all part of our total compensation package. We can choke the goose to give us more golden eggs, but there is not an unlimited supply of golden eggs.
We'll all fill out ALPA contract surveys and both sides' negotiators will negotiate a new contract. That's about all we rank and file can do - fill out surveys on what's most important to us. It doesn't even matter that you think my view toward these negotiations is defeatist; I will have near zero influence on the outcome (the only minor impact I will have is filling out the contract survey).
I only disagree with you on one point - that they ALWAYS end up spending more. If the negotiations are dragged out for an extended period and the economy tanks along with company profits, the company will likely end up walking back some union gains.
Along those same lines, I hate seeing negotiations drag on for a couple of years for just a few extra pennies.
Along those same lines, I hate seeing negotiations drag on for a couple of years for just a few extra pennies.
I agree with you there! Let’s see how sincere team Oscar/Scott are about getting this thing done by the amendable date. I’ll sit back and give the process a chance. But my gut tells me that once Kirby realizes that scope relief is a non starter, we’ll end up in traditional, drawn out negotiations. Hope I’m wrong.
04-01-2018 | 01:02 PM
#105
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 342
Likes: 0
Exactly how would the DAL model be bad for SL hoarders? They can’t sell it back. If they blow one ACL or shoulder it’s gone and paid the same as someone who has their 240 hrs. And you both start up next yr with 240.
We need a better LTD plan other than hoarding SL that you give back for free when you retire.
We need a better LTD plan other than hoarding SL that you give back for free when you retire.
04-01-2018 | 02:07 PM
#106
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 5,508
Likes: 109
I think we’re taking past each other a little bit. My point is that if the company had their way, they would start and end with a dollar value that they were willing to spend. They ALWAYS end up spending more.
Why? It’s because we push them beyond what they say they want to spend. That’s the negotiators job. Some things, as you mentioned, can be horse traded. Others, are just gonna cost money. That’s the bottom line. And we should remember that the next time a suit tries to tell us that it’s a zero sum negotiation. Because it isn’t.
Why? It’s because we push them beyond what they say they want to spend. That’s the negotiators job. Some things, as you mentioned, can be horse traded. Others, are just gonna cost money. That’s the bottom line. And we should remember that the next time a suit tries to tell us that it’s a zero sum negotiation. Because it isn’t.
That’s not a slight against the company either, we realize what it means to have experience up front. They’re looking at what it costs to move an airplane from A to B and maximizing share holder return.
Like I tell people, you’re not paying me to fly you from DSM to PSP.... you’re paying for my experience the day you’re on an airplane out of DSM into the ice at mins and an engine catches fire with a deferred APU. You’re paying for that 1%, not the 99%.
04-01-2018 | 04:11 PM
#108
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,213
Likes: 14
From: guppy CA
Yes, we need a better LTD! Better LTD will come with higher premiums. The reason DAL model would be worse for healthy (low use of sick leave) is now I would have to pay for something that I earn though my health. And in its present form a large percent of pilots out on LTD at UAL and DAL will be out longer than 3 months. Therefore, they will only receive 60% of their pay for 8 months as opposed to a person that has accumulated 1200+ of sick leave being paid 100% of monthly pay. Yes, its bad to have a balance when you retire and I would be in full agreement to put a value on it for a pilot when they retire. I guess the best way to look at it, is its like an insurance policy much like a term policy. Unfortunately, I pay for a term policy for 20 yrs and if I don't die, it ends up being a waste of money. But, it sure beats the alternative!!
By the way, although the LTD is 60% (capped at $8K/mo), it's tax free. When I was out on LTD, I converted my wife and my 401ks/traditional IRAs (due to converting our military TSPs to IRAs) to Roth IRAs/401ks. I converted enough each year to be just below Pease/PEP kicking in on our taxes.
04-01-2018 | 04:49 PM
#109
Line Holder
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 1,374
Likes: 54
If the company had their way, there would be no RLA or ALPA and they would pay the bare min it required to put butts in seats regardless of qualifications.
That’s not a slight against the company either, we realize what it means to have experience up front. They’re looking at what it costs to move an airplane from A to B and maximizing share holder return.
Like I tell people, you’re not paying me to fly you from DSM to PSP.... you’re paying for my experience the day you’re on an airplane out of DSM into the ice at mins and an engine catches fire with a deferred APU. You’re paying for that 1%, not the 99%.
That’s not a slight against the company either, we realize what it means to have experience up front. They’re looking at what it costs to move an airplane from A to B and maximizing share holder return.
Like I tell people, you’re not paying me to fly you from DSM to PSP.... you’re paying for my experience the day you’re on an airplane out of DSM into the ice at mins and an engine catches fire with a deferred APU. You’re paying for that 1%, not the 99%.
Good point. I was only using our present reality as my frame of reference. You’re absolutely correct though. If they could get away with it they’d put the min qualified possible, and take their chances. It’s just reality. I think every corporation who’s business has a public safety component has actuaries who do nothing but try to weigh the cost of tragedy vs the cost of offsetting it. (Ford pinto, anyone?) I’m just glad we work at a carrier where ALPA is on the property.
04-01-2018 | 05:22 PM
#110
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 859
Likes: 0
Wanna talk about LTD and SL accrual? Every newhire is in a big hole for their first 5 years if they get sick. That's by design and needs to be fixed. Ive been here 2.5 yrs and have 40hrs in my bank. After a decade making peanuts at the regionals I'm trying to pay off accrued debts etc but cannot support myself off savings for 6 months. Giant hole in our coverage.
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