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05-23-2018 | 09:18 PM
#51
Banned
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 1,358
Likes: 0
I totally disagree with both of you.
First off you need to understand that flight planning with the FO in the flight planning office was the way most LUAL flights were done before the merger and the vast majority of LUAL captain's still do that today. Going straight to the plane was an unusual event when you were particularly late or wanted to grab food. 90% of the time pilots went first to the flight planning office and sat down at a table to review all the papers and only after BOTH pilots had looked everything over did the captain sign the release and then BOTH pilots went together to the plane.
Also, there is absolutely no way a domestic pilot can load his iPad, read all the NOTAMS and review the DIL and review the weather forecast for the destination and enroute and alternate and discuss MEL items and fuel with your FO and THEN do a full setup in an A320 when the van drops you off 45 minutes prior.
You can say no one at LCAL ever had a problem with 30 minutes, but I will tell you I had a friend at the commuters who got violated because he didn't read a NOTAM about a changed minimum on an ILS into HPN and shot an approach when visibility was below the NOTAM'd limit. I had my own case as an FO on the 767 when flying to ZRH with GVA listed as an alternate. Turns out buried deep in the NOTAMs was a tiny note saying GVA would be closed for the time period we were going to arrive. The next closest suitable alternate ended up causing us to add gas. Who knows what choices we might have been faced with if I hadn't caught that note. What about our guys that missed the tid-bit about calling Turkey ahead of crossing VESAR that got in trouble. Do you think a little more time reviewing the available info might have been prudent?
Cutting corners in reviewing information may work most of the time as there isn't much relevant in there 99% of the time, but skip something important just once and you may be in trouble.
First off you need to understand that flight planning with the FO in the flight planning office was the way most LUAL flights were done before the merger and the vast majority of LUAL captain's still do that today. Going straight to the plane was an unusual event when you were particularly late or wanted to grab food. 90% of the time pilots went first to the flight planning office and sat down at a table to review all the papers and only after BOTH pilots had looked everything over did the captain sign the release and then BOTH pilots went together to the plane.
Also, there is absolutely no way a domestic pilot can load his iPad, read all the NOTAMS and review the DIL and review the weather forecast for the destination and enroute and alternate and discuss MEL items and fuel with your FO and THEN do a full setup in an A320 when the van drops you off 45 minutes prior.
You can say no one at LCAL ever had a problem with 30 minutes, but I will tell you I had a friend at the commuters who got violated because he didn't read a NOTAM about a changed minimum on an ILS into HPN and shot an approach when visibility was below the NOTAM'd limit. I had my own case as an FO on the 767 when flying to ZRH with GVA listed as an alternate. Turns out buried deep in the NOTAMs was a tiny note saying GVA would be closed for the time period we were going to arrive. The next closest suitable alternate ended up causing us to add gas. Who knows what choices we might have been faced with if I hadn't caught that note. What about our guys that missed the tid-bit about calling Turkey ahead of crossing VESAR that got in trouble. Do you think a little more time reviewing the available info might have been prudent?
Cutting corners in reviewing information may work most of the time as there isn't much relevant in there 99% of the time, but skip something important just once and you may be in trouble.
05-23-2018 | 10:05 PM
#52
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 332
Likes: 0
I believe there is a happy medium which can be found here. First leg of a trip, I’m in SFO ops unless I received a text/email from the FO (commuting issue/running late etc) like the FOM encourages(“should”). On subsequent legs, I encourage my FOs to take an active role in reviewing the plan and to text/email (pilot mobile has this ability in the app if one doesn’t want to share cell phone numbers) me when they have seen the release etc and are happy with the plan. When I get the text/email, I release the flight if all is kosher. Often, we discuss what we have both reviewed separately while in the van/car and are on the same page before the driver stops at the curb (this has involved phone calls etc to TOMC/Dispatch enroute when it is private transportation). I’ve flown with one or two FOs who will not look at the flight papers until they are at the airport over the last 5 years but it has literally been like 2 in 5 years . I respect that decision. I don’t do 50% of the walk arounds when paired with one of these guys but I still offer to purchase coffee since I’ve borrowed 15 minutes of my “unpaid” time at the hotel (or on the van) and used it at the airport to make a Starbucks (or better yet a local coffee shop if available) run for myself and others on the crew.
05-24-2018 | 08:49 PM
#53
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 2,209
Likes: 6
From: 777
Duly noted but as pointed out, you're completely in the minority on this as no other airline does this anymore. Perhaps its day has come and gone and some of the UAL types are just to proud to admit that it really serves no purpose?
I launch all the time despite the 5 pages of Notams in there as does the entire rest of the industry and do it in way less time than you've indicated.
Quite frankly if you're so concerned about every single detail listed in the paperwork, might it be safest of all to never leave the warm, comfy confines of the hallowed FPA and just stay on the ground?
I launch all the time despite the 5 pages of Notams in there as does the entire rest of the industry and do it in way less time than you've indicated.
Quite frankly if you're so concerned about every single detail listed in the paperwork, might it be safest of all to never leave the warm, comfy confines of the hallowed FPA and just stay on the ground?
I have caught quite a few things that dispatch either did not see or never looked at. That is what we are paid to do. For the last 25 years, I just can't seem to do a preflight in less than 20 minutes, and that is if nothing goes wrong and I'm not interrupted. Doing a preflight and flight papers in that time, I'm skeptical.
if you do the job the FOM requires us to do, no interruptions, or distractions, you can do it in the allotted minimum time, barely. If you manage to do it in less, you are cutting corners--my experience.
Arguing because no one else is doing it is not a valid point. That's what got NASA in trouble with the space shuttle. It worked before! Serves no purpose, reviewing flight papers, weather, notams? Yes, I am one of those UAL types, and will continue to be one.
05-25-2018 | 03:48 AM
#55
Line Holder
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,725
Likes: 0
From: UAL retired
I said earlier from a real world standpoint today I feel like I work for a company that is worth putting in the "extra mile" so I have no bones about loading and reviewing the FPF in the van . . . TODAY . . .
but
legacy United pilots had a long history of holding the company to our contract and not doing extra or unpaid work when the situation between pilots and management was adversarial. So I just wish pilots at the new United could all agree that reviewing the FPF in the van is a form of going the extra mile, and we need to document that fact in an ongoing basis so it doesn't become "past practice" that suddenly turns into a contract requirement. That would be a loss that is already halfway done. Pan Am pilots had the contractual right to a dedicated flight planning location and time to review the papers, and UAL-ALPA fought to get that exact same right. Giving it up for free just because technology is changing would be a shame.
but
legacy United pilots had a long history of holding the company to our contract and not doing extra or unpaid work when the situation between pilots and management was adversarial. So I just wish pilots at the new United could all agree that reviewing the FPF in the van is a form of going the extra mile, and we need to document that fact in an ongoing basis so it doesn't become "past practice" that suddenly turns into a contract requirement. That would be a loss that is already halfway done. Pan Am pilots had the contractual right to a dedicated flight planning location and time to review the papers, and UAL-ALPA fought to get that exact same right. Giving it up for free just because technology is changing would be a shame.
Last edited by Sunvox; 05-25-2018 at 04:02 AM.
05-25-2018 | 03:57 AM
#56
Number Last
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 442
Likes: 0
From: Boeing voice activated systems and ACARS commander
I said earlier from a real world standpoint today I feel like I work for a company that is worth putting in the "extra mile" so I have no bones about loading and reviewing the FPF in the van . . . TODAY . . .
but
legacy United pilots had a long history of holding the company to our contract and not doing extra when the situation between pilots and management was adversarial. So I just wish pilots at the new United could all agree that reviewing the FPF in the van is a form of going the extra mile, and we need to document that fact in an ongoing basis so it doesn't become "past practice" that suddenly turns into a contract requirement. That would be a HUGE loss.
but
legacy United pilots had a long history of holding the company to our contract and not doing extra when the situation between pilots and management was adversarial. So I just wish pilots at the new United could all agree that reviewing the FPF in the van is a form of going the extra mile, and we need to document that fact in an ongoing basis so it doesn't become "past practice" that suddenly turns into a contract requirement. That would be a HUGE loss.
05-25-2018 | 06:42 AM
#57
Line Holder
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
I totally disagree with both of you.
First off you need to understand that flight planning with the FO in the flight planning office was the way most LUAL flights were done before the merger and the vast majority of LUAL captain's still do that today. Going straight to the plane was an unusual event when you were particularly late or wanted to grab food. 90% of the time pilots went first to the flight planning office and sat down at a table to review all the papers and only after BOTH pilots had looked everything over did the captain sign the release and then BOTH pilots went together to the plane.
Also, there is absolutely no way a domestic pilot can load his iPad, read all the NOTAMS and review the DIL and review the weather forecast for the destination and enroute and alternate and discuss MEL items and fuel with your FO and THEN do a full setup in an A320 when the van drops you off 45 minutes prior.
You can say no one at LCAL ever had a problem with 30 minutes, but I will tell you I had a friend at the commuters who got violated because he didn't read a NOTAM about a changed minimum on an ILS into HPN and shot an approach when visibility was below the NOTAM'd limit. I had my own case as an FO on the 767 when flying to ZRH with GVA listed as an alternate. Turns out buried deep in the NOTAMs was a tiny note saying GVA would be closed for the time period we were going to arrive. The next closest suitable alternate ended up causing us to add gas. Who knows what choices we might have been faced with if I hadn't caught that note. What about our guys that missed the tid-bit about calling Turkey ahead of crossing VESAR that got in trouble. Do you think a little more time reviewing the available info might have been prudent?
Cutting corners in reviewing information may work most of the time as there isn't much relevant in there 99% of the time, but skip something important just once and you may be in trouble.
First off you need to understand that flight planning with the FO in the flight planning office was the way most LUAL flights were done before the merger and the vast majority of LUAL captain's still do that today. Going straight to the plane was an unusual event when you were particularly late or wanted to grab food. 90% of the time pilots went first to the flight planning office and sat down at a table to review all the papers and only after BOTH pilots had looked everything over did the captain sign the release and then BOTH pilots went together to the plane.
Also, there is absolutely no way a domestic pilot can load his iPad, read all the NOTAMS and review the DIL and review the weather forecast for the destination and enroute and alternate and discuss MEL items and fuel with your FO and THEN do a full setup in an A320 when the van drops you off 45 minutes prior.
You can say no one at LCAL ever had a problem with 30 minutes, but I will tell you I had a friend at the commuters who got violated because he didn't read a NOTAM about a changed minimum on an ILS into HPN and shot an approach when visibility was below the NOTAM'd limit. I had my own case as an FO on the 767 when flying to ZRH with GVA listed as an alternate. Turns out buried deep in the NOTAMs was a tiny note saying GVA would be closed for the time period we were going to arrive. The next closest suitable alternate ended up causing us to add gas. Who knows what choices we might have been faced with if I hadn't caught that note. What about our guys that missed the tid-bit about calling Turkey ahead of crossing VESAR that got in trouble. Do you think a little more time reviewing the available info might have been prudent?
Cutting corners in reviewing information may work most of the time as there isn't much relevant in there 99% of the time, but skip something important just once and you may be in trouble.
Barf.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
05-25-2018 | 07:41 AM
#58
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 705
Likes: 0
The company enjoys a pay and duty benefit with a :45 min report. Some are more than happy to oblige with a gitterdone at any cost attitude. Flight planning in the hotel room or van just masks the issue at hand. As mentioned, a thorough preflight consumes :45 min. Throw in a couple operational issues, a lengthy MEL and you can easily see that :45 min is not enough unless you cut corners. What's your answer going to be to the NTSB?
Two sets of eyes are critical when looking at the flight papers. The text me if you're copasetic might work in most occasions. There are times when a face to face discussion is more appropriate. I think our flight attendants and passengers deserve better than a haphazard operational attitude when it comes to flight planning.
Two sets of eyes are critical when looking at the flight papers. The text me if you're copasetic might work in most occasions. There are times when a face to face discussion is more appropriate. I think our flight attendants and passengers deserve better than a haphazard operational attitude when it comes to flight planning.
05-25-2018 | 02:23 PM
#60
Banned
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 1,358
Likes: 0
Leave it to pilots to make something harder than it really is. Every other airline doesn’t make it this hard. United is no more professional or safe than any other airline, but I guess there are people at every company who think their way is better. This is just one of those deals. It’s a cultural belief system void of any data showing it to be superior, but with unquestioned loyalty to the concept.
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