Has your union ever been sued by your company resulting in a temporary injunction? Your public comments of "Fly the Contract", aka Work to Rule could be used against the union.

 

Motch,

you seem like a guy who is dialed in. So , I find it odd that you wouldn’t connect the dots here. Perhaps it’s because you’re legacy CAL, and haven’t witnessed first hand just how vindictive and dishonest the company can and WILL be if they sense even an inkling of a change in status quo. The bar is very low to obtain a TRO, and I don’t doubt for one second that they are watching the forums for any sort of concerted action. Yes, it’s effing stupid. But we gotta be smart and learn from our past mistakes, even if it was just bluster on a forum.

 

I have never been a member of a Union where we were taken to court over "Fly The Contract".
I was hired at Trans States Airlines in 2000 and from day one.. when I got my first ALPA Pin.. I said "Fly The Contract".
(I was Sec Tres of our local council in RIC and would do weekly phone messages ending with "Fly The Contract".
Hired at Continental Airlines in Nov 2007 and guess what.. said "Fly The Contract" from day one.

When I joined my last Air Guard unit, I learned "Fly The Contract" from the United, Delta and UPS pilots in our squadron. It was referring to AFI 11C2-5 which was basically our contract!

So for someone/anyone to tell me that because of something that happened at Legacy United back in the 2000's (before I and many of us were there), I am 'not' allowed to say (or write) Fly the Contract.. well, not gonna change.
If I'm a pariah out there and need to eat and drink along on the overnight, no problem.

Getting back to the question-
Has your union ever been sued by your company resulting in a temporary injunction. Hmm... I don't know.
I can find NOTHING on the UAL ALPA Website discussing the past history of United ALPA. I heard it happened but again, only from posts on here and talking to some people who were around back then. (and from being banned from UAL Pilots Forum years ago for writing it! lol)
There must be some 'official' history in the ALPA National archives that discuss it.

Also, interesting that you wrote 'temporary' injunction. So whatever happened is no longer valid?!
Are you an expert that can educate myself, the other LCAL pilots (probably around 3000ish) and the other PMNH's (around 4000ish) on the history. And no one paragraph write-up. Something THAT big MUST require a few pages of reading.. to include the court summary.. Thanks

FS, FP and FtC
Motch

 

motch,

let’s not get carried away. You are NOT a pariah for saying “fly the contract”. Hell, I wish every pilot had your outlook. Since it’s been your tag line for years, I’m sure once the dust settled it would be fine, but when the folks who have been picking up premium, waiving the contract etc suddenly stop doing it, it’s looked upon as a status quo violation, even if they were just flying the contract. The deck is stacked against labor, sadly. And btw, a guy like you is ALWAYS welcome at happy hour. We only ostracize scabs!

 

Let’s not get carried away here. Guys are tripping over themselves to pick up some pretty unsavory out of base, straight pay trips right not. Besides an act of god, I’m convinced this pilot group will never stop picking up premium pay trips. Someone has to feed the monkey no matter the consequences.

So we don’t have to worry about that in regards to a status quo change.

 

I appreciate the 'dialed in' part.. thanks.
Yes, as a LCAL guy I am NOT aware of the sometimes tense history of LUnited. That being said, management at LCAL was not all roses and sunshine either.
So now we have an issue-
What did LUAL ALPA do or not do, what did the company claim and what went down in the courts?

Look, lets me brutally honest here for a second.
Stating 'Fly The Contract' in itself should mean nothing. No different than saying "have a nice day", "have a safe flight", "Fly Professionally". It's just a term, a couple of words.. so what.
Kinda like how we brief a V1 cut during the departure brief, or the go-around procedure during the arrival brief. Just a nice memory jogger.

Now, if.. because of something that happened a long time ago some people in the union leadership are worried about me (and others) saying it.. so what.
When was that?
Who were the players involved?
You have brought up 'vindictive and dishonest the company can and WILL be if they sense even an inkling of a change in status quo'.
Are those players still around?
Or do you believe that management will ALWAYS be that way?

The cultural change at our airline brought about by Oscar Munoz and facilitated by ALPA has been a large part of our success. With the impending change in CEO leadership, Oscar will hand Scott Kirby a profitable, streamlined, and efficient company with good labor relations.
Taken from yesterdays union email.
If we have been "Flying The Contract" all this time, and we have good labor relations... what changes?

Yes, I get that there will ALWAYS be the handful of hotheads out there that try to rock the boat. Hell, someone posted on here about NOT doing single engine taxi, APU usage, not extending.
I strongly posted against that.
However..
Not doing single engine taxi is actually not part of the contract. I'd argue it's part of the FOM and SOP.
Same with APU usage. As for as extending.. the contract gives you the option to do it knowing that in some cases, you will get compensated for it and in other cases you will not.
Just Fly The Contract. Extend if you're not fatigued and willing to get paid/not get paid.

IF we ever get pulled into court over something a few individuals wrote on a forum, I would expect a strong defense from both ALPA Lawyers AND private lawyers. But to say that because a handful of guys did something stupid 10+ years ago and a court made a bad ruling.. we can NEVER write/say "Fly The Contract" is ludicrous (in my opinion).

Sometimes being a strong unionist isn't about wearing a pin.. or wearing your uniform at 100% compliance (LOL.. those on UAL Pilot Forums will get it), it's about taking a stand and just doing the right thing.
Flying Safe, Flying Professionally and Flying the Contract is doing the right thing. IF someone is saying Yes to the first 2 but don't say the 3rd... they are afraid to take up the fight. In the sense that just saying or writing those words is not a bad thing.

Thread drift (LOL.. what this is doing in the 73Max thread I do not know!)
In Iran, there are places where the US Flag is painted on the ground to 'encourage' people to walk on our Flag.
Seen videos lately where people are DELIBERATLY walking around so as to NOT step on the US Flag.
It's a small token.. and someone had to start it.. but it has meaning behind it.

I wish our Union had written-
FLY SAFE, FLY PROFESSIONALLY & FLY THE CONTRACT when the TA was approved back in Dec 2012.
Or again with the extension.
I wish ALPA National had that as their motto.

But until they do, I'll do it myself!
Always
FS, FP & FtC

PS) The company should ALSO promote that! They should want us to Fly Safely, Professionally and Contractually as it promotes a healthy company. Nothing wrong with flying the FOM, the SOP's, the contract and the FAR's. Makes the whole system work~

 

Biers on me! (Before the 12hr to report cut off, of course~ lol)
As far as picking up open time.
Guess I'm one of them!
I drop my line down.. sometimes to 0:00!
Allowed by the contract (Hint.. flying the contract)
I then try to pick up 764 flying that I do not get on my PBS award. This month I got a BCN but my bad.. it's on the 763. I will be trying to drop it later today for 764 and if not, I will have a Real Time Criteria pick up for 764 OR PPU. I live 20 miles from the base!
That being written, I have ALSO turned down vol SRM trips, and don't always pick up flying if I don't like the trip or the time doesn't work for me. I am a lazy pilot some days.. lol

If a reserve FO is given an assignment on a HDO, to me that is a violation of the contract. If he/she accepts that.. that is not flying the contract. If he/she accepts that because they make a deal deal - I call Bull****. THAT is not flying the contract. Wasn't legit 7 years ago... not legit now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kqw0Gz9GahM

If pilots understood what the contract meant.. not just the wording inside, but the 'meaning' of a contract, this wouldn't even be a discussion.
Hopefully this gets some of them to think. And in a good way. Don't change anything just understand what your contract language means.


See my post above. I can't speak for the other fleets but here in EWR, there are about 5-10 of us in the 756FO BES that try to get better trips on a regular basis. It's part of the 'contract' game and it's allowed and don't expect it to change.
I wouldn't call it 'tripping over themselves'. I call it what it is. Flying the Contract.
What I would call 'tripping over themselves' is if they deadhead in basic economy to get home sooner to pick up another trip. If they extend without add pay only to get home sooner to pick up another trip (while fatigued!)
Waiting over 15mins for a ride to the hotel.. etc.

As NS wrote on the other forum.. just do YOUR job. No one elses.
Our job is to Fly Safe, Fly Professionally, and to Fly The Contract.
Picking up trips in Open Time is flying the Contract. But then sitting in basic eco to your deadhead AND then waiting 30 mins for the ride to the hotel is NOT Flying the Contract.

My opinion
FS, FP and FtC
Motch

 

Hay Mods-
Any way you can break off these last few posts into it's own Thread?
Monkeys fly the Contract has a nice ring to it.

Fear that we will have a Contract WAY before the 73Max gets back up in the air..
LOL
FS, FP & FtC
Motch

 

I do apologize for my strident opinions on this and my approach may be rather direct.


Fly the contract is not a work to the rules campaign. That's an over the top "leap." that lacks foundation and isn't connected by any dots.


The company and the union BOTH negotiated in good faith to deliver a contract. For the pilots, for the company, and for the union. The expectation is: we will fly the contract. The expectation is NOT that we won't fly the contract. Legally speaking, a work to the rules campaign is ...so, so , so much more. It's also something that can and should be discussed as a point of education. Why? Because we have allot of new pilots, and allot of pilots who may be first time union members.


Who may be confused? likely former military pilots or recent college graduates.


Once again, let me state: Fly the Contract does NOT imply a work to the rules campaign, That's a reckless thing to say.


You can look at history and go out and cherry pick examples both airline and otherwise of what work to the rules campaigns look like and sound like.


Flying the contract is not unlike flying the line. How about flying the contract while flying the line. We, are different. why? We aren't corporate pilots with singular contracts, we are a pilot group - body politic - that have a collective agreement.


You fly your contract and I fly mine. It doesn't work that way. We have one and only one contract to fly. Furthermore, its' understood that the company, nor the union expects us, or demands of us that we waive our contract.


When a pilot doesn't extend he or she isn't chastised, or shamed by management. Why? Because the pilot exercised his right to choose, his or her free will. When a pilot doesn't waive rest or waive days off that pilot isn't singled out by management for discipline. Why? Because the contract gives them that right.


Are we scared that Puxatony Phil is going to come out and see his shadow? What happened 20 plus years ago with TRO's and injunctions happened. Different day, different pilot group, different leadership in union/company/white house, etc. We can't predict the future, but we can be mindful of the past without being terrified of it. Geez. Time to stop being scared of the boogey-man of yester-year..


An individuals opinion can't be used against an entire union. That's just silly. Union leadership is most certainly careful as to what they say in public and in private and in electronic communications. But, individuals first amendment rights still exist and an attempt to subvert that is shameful.


With great power comes great responsibility. We should all be individually careful as to what we say in public. We all know we can't go into a movie theater and yell fire when there is no fire. But, lets not be afraid to call a spade a spade and speak honestly about who we are, where we've been and where we're going.


It is a given we should fly the contract. Why do you think COMPANY Line Check Airman provide some initial education on the contract with new hires when doing IOE? Why do you think company instructors teach new pilots where to find the information? Why? The company expects you to fly the contract too. Heck, if the company thinks you're NOT flying the contract they may even haul you into the CPO for a carpet dance with your union rep to educate you on your shortcomings in flying the contract.


My personal advice is this. Figure it out already. Understand the company's position, understand the union's position, and know what your roles and responsibilities are both as a union member and as a company employee. Know who pays you, but know who negotiates, maintains and enforces your contract.


if someone puts out a statement that says Dance Naked, it does not imply that you should do so in an unlawful manner.

 

I think it's well established that when pilots get divorced, they fly more. When they buy a new corvette, they fly more. When kids are in college they fly more. When pilots do "extra", it may very well be because they have extra responsibilities. I am sure when Management works overtime its because their boss needed them to.

Picking up overtime is just as voluntary as waiving rest or extending their CCO time. I haven't picked up open time in 6 months, I've never extended my CCO time, and I don't answer the phone for soft resets and I don't waive my rest. But, I also show up to work on time and I fly a safe standard airplane. So....Am I in trouble? Nope, all is well.

However, In a few months, should I get divorced, buy a boat, and a Porche, I may need to go and pick up some PPU.

Lets' not be afriad of the boogey man. I am sure our union is watching to see if any of our pilots get taken hostage.