Sunvox

As I have perused this and other forums over the last couple days as well as read as much as possible about the Delta AIP I have begun to form an opinion that I hope will hold true. Of course, as with any opinion I reserve the right to change my mind if future facts make that necessary

Anyways, I feel as if the Tumi TA set a segment of the pilot population here and elsewhere into thinking that unless we get unicorns and rainbows in the next contract then we should vote "NO!" In so doing perhaps we've lost sight of the end game.

From what I have read so far the Delta AIP is a HUGE win for our profession, and a win that was the result of a team effort, namely the resounding no votes at UAL and AA told Delta management what was needed. In round numbers we as a profession went from a $2 billion dollar offer to an $8 billion dollar offer. Here are the gets as I understand them so far and in no particular order and certainly not all of them:

1) Holiday pay.
2) Tripled per diem.
3) Higher pay for vacation.
4) Higher pay for training.
5) Retro, or signing bonus or call it what you will extending back into COVID days.
6) Pay rate that about equals inflation over a 7 year period 2020-26
7) Seconding the UAL idea of paying for reassignments and doing it better.

and those are just the ones I've found so far. I'm sure LTD and sick time are probably improved as well. At this point simply matching this stupendous offer is a HUGE win in my book. Just take a moment and look how far above it is from the Tumi turd in every facet, and then ask yourself . . . if we get a similar offer do we really want to argue over nickels on the dollar to try and say we're "Industry Leading".

My answer should be clear.

My opinion - assuming we get something similar, and I realize at this point that is still an assumption and not a given, BUT assuming we do get an offer I think it's time to sit back and be happy with where we are for a moment rather than continue to look for a fight for unicorns and rainbows in the "next" offer.

Okay, that's it. I put my flame suit on, and am ready for the incoming salvos

hummingbear

The old “unicorns & rainbows” phrase is a hackneyed straw man that’s been overused to shut down anyone who advocates turning down a present deal for something more. Before TUMI got shut down, there were a lot of people using that same attack against those who spoke out against it. They found themselves on the wrong side of history in a matter of weeks, not months or years. “Money on the table” isn’t always the right choice & it isn’t always the wrong choice- It’s all about circumstances & context.

Having said all that, I think you’re smoking crack if you think Delta’s TA wouldn’t pass here by a lot. I’d have to run numbers as I’m far from an expert on their contract, but if it were a true Delta match (reserve rules, vacation, profit sharing, etc.) I’d probably be inclined to vote for it myself.

awax

You mean, if you demand perfection or nothing, you always get nothing?

Sunvox

Very minor note. Our profit sharing is virtually identical to Delta's. The reason we get less is not because of the difference in how profit sharing is calculated but rather in how much profit Delta has earned in the past compared to United. Delta gets 10% of the profit upto $2.5 billion and 20% after. We get 10% of profit on all profit that is 6.9% or less profit margin and 20% after. In recent years 6.9% profit margin has been roughly $2.5 billion. Now going forward as inflation raises the absolute numbers of revenue this may become a bigger issue, but so far it's been about Delta's superior profitability and not the profit sharing.

Also, prior to this TA our vacation was virtually identical over an entire career. You see Delta got slightly more credit per day, but United has several jumps in the number of days that put total days higher than a comparable Delta seniority pilot. Some decades it's even, but then some decades it's not. When you add up the time paid over a 30 year career it's virtually identical.

I'm also a bit confused by your post. You're on record saying a 13/5/5/5 offer should get the MEC recalled again, but in the above post you say you would probably vote yes on a TA that matches Delta. So, are you saying you'd vote yes only if the offer was 18/5/5/5 putting our pay rates 5% above Delta's or would you accept a contract with equal pay rates if all the other items were equal because it seems to me having pay rates 5% above Delta is not matching but exceeding . . . by a lot.

Finally, not sure what you mean by me smokin' crack thinking UAL wouldn't vote in a Delta like TA. I'm on record saying exactly that. I believe we WILL see a TA almost identical to the AIP at Delta, and I believe the pilots of UAL will vote yes. BUT . . . I think there is a chance that the negative sentiment could be so loud towards ANY offer the company makes that the current MEC might actually not let it go out to vote, so the entire point here is maybe we should look at the Delta offer as a win for everybody and NOT be encouraging our leadership to reject the next offer out of hand if it doesn't meet some single target like 18/5/5/5 or whatever.

Sniper66

Exclude the 5 we got from covid LOA

DOS 25/then 5/4/4

retro based on regular and add on pay
25 for 2022 and part of 2023
5 for 2021
5 for 2020
20 for 2019

LTD 15000 per month plus 16 percent contributions

sick leave 85 hours per year , max 1500 hours with 50% buyback upon retirement or deposit 100% on the RHA. Pilots choice

min day 5.15
vac 4 hours
training 4 hours
perdiem as per government numbers
reserve all long call 18 hrs
Reassignment 150% all
pick up short calls , 1 hour add pay per SC
No FSB
Profit sharing no change
Scope no change

anything less that that thanks but no thanks

elmetal

why 50% buyback?

Even spirit does 100% buyback. either 100% buyback, or yearly lose or use ala delta. none of this 50% crap, no offense to you

JTwift

Get rid of global reserve.

put limits on number/% of reserve pilots.

limit SC conversions

ninerdriver

1. All negotiating in public on the forums.

I'm not voting for a single TA that hasn't been 100% negotiated by the general pilot public on APC.

hummingbear

You read what you want to. I’ve said many times percentages are a shorthand for total compensation. I think our pay needs to exceed inflation on DOS. If that doesn’t happen through rates, it needs to be made up through contractual gains. 13% and approximate work rule stagnation would be a no for me & I believe another TUMI level backlash. 13% and huge contract gains could be a yes. I probably shouldn’t have said more about that contract’s viability over here without doing a detailed comparison, which I haven’t- I was spitballing.

I’m not afraid like you seem to be at the idea of improving on the Delta contract. I do believe we’re owed an honest 5% for the pandemic LOA & that means we should be targeting inflation & not Delta. Their snap-up means that even if we exceed their rates, the payroll playing field will still be level. So yeah, 20%+ would be totally reasonable, & would not preclude us competing on cost with Delta.

UALinIAH

Joe you keep peddling that line and it’s getting more incorrect each month. It was “close” 10 years ago but with the rising expenses line, the 6.9% threshold gets further and further behind the 2.5M number. It’s simple economics. This and the elephant in the room, they get 16 soon to be 17 then 18% on top. So even if it was the same we’re behind. Please stop trying to rationalize that logic. It doesn’t help your case.