How bad is 320 flying, really?
04-12-2023 | 03:19 PM
#21
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,402
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From: fatigued
Hello, starting in a few weeks. I've had some people tell me that the 320 is the regional jet of the company. I've had others tell me they rarely fly more than 2 legs a day. What is the general consensus? I know the answer generally comes down to seniority, but any other insight? Thanks.
04-12-2023 | 04:08 PM
#22
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 3,633
Likes: 209
Bus pilots have Stockholm syndrome. The 73 has better, larger bases for open time, and better pairings all around. You might get a bad pairing on the 73 but there WILL be an open trip on those days for trading purposes. The 73 is the growth fleet despite its misgivings. Bus deliveries will be pushed back even further while you could be moving up in % every month on 73.
04-12-2023 | 04:10 PM
#23
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Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 638
Likes: 12
I recently rode a hotel van with a Delta crew before we set off on our redeyes. They were going home to finish in Detroit and we were going to join the mass migration of zombie pilots walking across the parking lots of EWR. The idea of a day sleep was blasphemy to them. I’m not sure if their contract strictly prohibits it, but they had never seen a pairing that includes an 11 hour day sleep followed by one, let alone two legs that evening. It’s interesting that EWR doesn’t see many redeyes, but it would be nice to see something in a TA that limits day sleeps. But that would probably force more redeyes into the east coast pairings.
As I recall, the “dayovers” were eliminated in the Tumi TA. One can only hope that little benefit carries over to whatever comes next.
04-12-2023 | 04:40 PM
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 4,095
Likes: 458
I recently rode a hotel van with a Delta crew before we set off on our redeyes. They were going home to finish in Detroit and we were going to join the mass migration of zombie pilots walking across the parking lots of EWR. The idea of a day sleep was blasphemy to them. I’m not sure if their contract strictly prohibits it, but they had never seen a pairing that includes an 11 hour day sleep followed by one, let alone two legs that evening. It’s interesting that EWR doesn’t see many redeyes, but it would be nice to see something in a TA that limits day sleeps. But that would probably force more redeyes into the east coast pairings.
04-12-2023 | 04:59 PM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2022
Posts: 240
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I recently rode a hotel van with a Delta crew before we set off on our redeyes. They were going home to finish in Detroit and we were going to join the mass migration of zombie pilots walking across the parking lots of EWR. The idea of a day sleep was blasphemy to them. I’m not sure if their contract strictly prohibits it, but they had never seen a pairing that includes an 11 hour day sleep followed by one, let alone two legs that evening. It’s interesting that EWR doesn’t see many redeyes, but it would be nice to see something in a TA that limits day sleeps. But that would probably force more redeyes into the east coast pairings.
04-12-2023 | 05:01 PM
#26
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Joined: Feb 2017
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That's funny because I see them quite often (I'm usually able to avoid them) but on the 737 at Delta we have them. Usually just one short-ish leg that evening after the day sleep..but sometimes it's a fairly long 3+ hour leg. And very occasionally it's two short legs. I hate them, but some guys seem to not mind them.
04-12-2023 | 06:27 PM
#27
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2010
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That sounds VERY FATIGUING….
Hence why I left a cargo outfit that did 70-75% night hub turns with 12-14 hour day layovers.
04-12-2023 | 06:55 PM
#28
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 274
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Thanks to the Delta guys who chimed in on the day sleeps. Like it is here, I’m sure it’s pretty base specific on what pairings look like. At least you guys get some suffering and maybe we’ll be able to set at least something Industry leading…
04-13-2023 | 05:10 AM
#29
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,725
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From: UAL retired
We do have some protections now, and supposedly we have negotiated improvements to said protections.
I recently rode a hotel van with a Delta crew before we set off on our redeyes. They were going home to finish in Detroit and we were going to join the mass migration of zombie pilots walking across the parking lots of EWR. The idea of a day sleep was blasphemy to them. I’m not sure if their contract strictly prohibits it, but they had never seen a pairing that includes an 11 hour day sleep followed by one, let alone two legs that evening. It’s interesting that EWR doesn’t see many redeyes, but it would be nice to see something in a TA that limits day sleeps. But that would probably force more redeyes into the east coast pairings.
5-E-10 All Night Flying (ANF) Restrictions
5-E-10-a The ANF restrictions in this Section 5-E-10 shall not apply to a Global deadhead Flight or to an augmented Global Flying Flight Segment.
5-E-10-b Definitions
5-E-10-b-(1) Window of Circadian Low (“WOCL”) means 0200 through 0559.
5-E-10-b-(2) All Night Flying (“ANF”) means a flight segment in which the scheduled flight time includes any or all of the time period from 0230 to 0329.
5-E-10-b-(3) The time frame of reference (i.e., Base time or local time) used to determine WOCL and ANF shall be the same as that used to determine the Duty Period limitations contained in Section 5-E-1.
5-E-10-c A Pilot may be scheduled for a Basic Flight Segment or an unaugmented Global Flying Flight Segment in a WOCL period only if he is or was scheduled, under this Section 5-E, to be off-duty in the immediately preceding WOCL period.
5-E-10-c-(1) A Pilot may waive this Section 5-E-10-c, and by waiving, a Reserve also waives the restrictions contained in Section 20-K-3-c-(11). If a Pilot does waive this Section 5-E-10-c and receives an assignment requiring the waiver, he must be scheduled to be off-duty in at least one intervening WOCL period before he may again waive this Section 5-E-10-c.
5-E-10-d A Pilot shall have a minimum of twelve (12) hours free from duty prior to a Duty Period that contains ANF, except that:
5-E-10-d-(1) A Reserve may be assigned a Trip which contains ANF in the initial Duty Period as long as the only obligation the Reserve has had in the twelve (12) hours prior to the required report time for the Duty Period containing ANF is telephone availability.
5-E-10-d-(2) A Trip that contains ANF in the initial Duty Period can be covered by a Reserve who has been assigned a Field Standby assignment provided he received at least twelve (12) hours free from duty and free from telephone availability, prior to reporting for the Field Standby assignment.
5-E-10-e A Pilot shall have a minimum of sixteen (16) hours free from duty following a Basic Trip containing ANF in the last Duty Period if his next assignment is a Global Trip.
5-E-10-f After ANF, an Off-Duty Period must be scheduled before the Pilot's next scheduled Flight Segment. However, this provision shall not apply to Duty Periods consisting solely of charter operations. The SSC may waive this provision; if it does so, the waiver shall also apply to Section 5-F.
5-E-10-g An unaugmented Duty Period that contains ANF shall meet the following requirements, except that these requirements shall not apply to Duty Periods consisting solely of charter operations:
5-E-10-g-(1) A maximum of two (2) Flight Segments, subject to the following:
5-E-10-g-(1)-(a) During Trip construction for Monthly Schedule Preferencing, the maximum shall be one (1) Flight Segment. The SSC may waive this restriction on a Trip basis; if waived, all ANF Duty Period limitations shall also be waived for these Trips. The SSC can rescind such a waiver at any time prior to forty-five (45) days before the start of the affected Bid Period, unless the Company and the Association otherwise agree.
5-E-10-g-(1)-(b) If the first segment in a two-segment ANF Duty Period is a deadhead, the deadheading Pilot shall be booked in accordance with the provisions of Section 5-C-1-b.
5-E-10-g-(1)-(c) When the Company utilizes the provisions of Section 20-H-6, it shall seek to avoid the creation of two-segment ANF Duty Periods.
5-E-10-g-(2) A maximum Duty Period of nine hours and forty-five minutes (9:45).
5-E-10-g-(3) No more than two hour and thirty minutes (2:30) ground time between Flight Segments, except that the maximum shall be one hour and forty-five minutes (1:45) at locations that do not meet the requirements of Section 4-C-1-b. These time limitations may be waived by the SSC.
5-E-10-h The Company must obtain SSC approval for Trips that have an augmented Basic Duty Period containing ANF scheduled to exceed eight (8) hours Flight Time on an aircraft that does not have Class 1 or Class 2 Crew Rest Facilities. Such approval shall not be unreasonably withheld. If the SSC does not approve the Trip, it must offer at least one alternative reasonable Trip proposal.
5-E-11 After an augmented Global Flight that is ANF, an Off-Duty Period must be scheduled before the Pilot's next scheduled Flight Segment. However, this provision shall not apply to Duty Periods consisting solely of charter operations. The SSC may waive this provision; if it does so, the waiver shall also apply to Section 5-F.
5-E-10-a The ANF restrictions in this Section 5-E-10 shall not apply to a Global deadhead Flight or to an augmented Global Flying Flight Segment.
5-E-10-b Definitions
5-E-10-b-(1) Window of Circadian Low (“WOCL”) means 0200 through 0559.
5-E-10-b-(2) All Night Flying (“ANF”) means a flight segment in which the scheduled flight time includes any or all of the time period from 0230 to 0329.
5-E-10-b-(3) The time frame of reference (i.e., Base time or local time) used to determine WOCL and ANF shall be the same as that used to determine the Duty Period limitations contained in Section 5-E-1.
5-E-10-c A Pilot may be scheduled for a Basic Flight Segment or an unaugmented Global Flying Flight Segment in a WOCL period only if he is or was scheduled, under this Section 5-E, to be off-duty in the immediately preceding WOCL period.
5-E-10-c-(1) A Pilot may waive this Section 5-E-10-c, and by waiving, a Reserve also waives the restrictions contained in Section 20-K-3-c-(11). If a Pilot does waive this Section 5-E-10-c and receives an assignment requiring the waiver, he must be scheduled to be off-duty in at least one intervening WOCL period before he may again waive this Section 5-E-10-c.
5-E-10-d A Pilot shall have a minimum of twelve (12) hours free from duty prior to a Duty Period that contains ANF, except that:
5-E-10-d-(1) A Reserve may be assigned a Trip which contains ANF in the initial Duty Period as long as the only obligation the Reserve has had in the twelve (12) hours prior to the required report time for the Duty Period containing ANF is telephone availability.
5-E-10-d-(2) A Trip that contains ANF in the initial Duty Period can be covered by a Reserve who has been assigned a Field Standby assignment provided he received at least twelve (12) hours free from duty and free from telephone availability, prior to reporting for the Field Standby assignment.
5-E-10-e A Pilot shall have a minimum of sixteen (16) hours free from duty following a Basic Trip containing ANF in the last Duty Period if his next assignment is a Global Trip.
5-E-10-f After ANF, an Off-Duty Period must be scheduled before the Pilot's next scheduled Flight Segment. However, this provision shall not apply to Duty Periods consisting solely of charter operations. The SSC may waive this provision; if it does so, the waiver shall also apply to Section 5-F.
5-E-10-g An unaugmented Duty Period that contains ANF shall meet the following requirements, except that these requirements shall not apply to Duty Periods consisting solely of charter operations:
5-E-10-g-(1) A maximum of two (2) Flight Segments, subject to the following:
5-E-10-g-(1)-(a) During Trip construction for Monthly Schedule Preferencing, the maximum shall be one (1) Flight Segment. The SSC may waive this restriction on a Trip basis; if waived, all ANF Duty Period limitations shall also be waived for these Trips. The SSC can rescind such a waiver at any time prior to forty-five (45) days before the start of the affected Bid Period, unless the Company and the Association otherwise agree.
5-E-10-g-(1)-(b) If the first segment in a two-segment ANF Duty Period is a deadhead, the deadheading Pilot shall be booked in accordance with the provisions of Section 5-C-1-b.
5-E-10-g-(1)-(c) When the Company utilizes the provisions of Section 20-H-6, it shall seek to avoid the creation of two-segment ANF Duty Periods.
5-E-10-g-(2) A maximum Duty Period of nine hours and forty-five minutes (9:45).
5-E-10-g-(3) No more than two hour and thirty minutes (2:30) ground time between Flight Segments, except that the maximum shall be one hour and forty-five minutes (1:45) at locations that do not meet the requirements of Section 4-C-1-b. These time limitations may be waived by the SSC.
5-E-10-h The Company must obtain SSC approval for Trips that have an augmented Basic Duty Period containing ANF scheduled to exceed eight (8) hours Flight Time on an aircraft that does not have Class 1 or Class 2 Crew Rest Facilities. Such approval shall not be unreasonably withheld. If the SSC does not approve the Trip, it must offer at least one alternative reasonable Trip proposal.
5-E-11 After an augmented Global Flight that is ANF, an Off-Duty Period must be scheduled before the Pilot's next scheduled Flight Segment. However, this provision shall not apply to Duty Periods consisting solely of charter operations. The SSC may waive this provision; if it does so, the waiver shall also apply to Section 5-F.
Miscellaneous
Agreed:
Agreed:
- G-line and LPA final within 24 hours of bid opening
- PBS timeline moved up two days
- Further reduced LPA during any involuntary furlough
- Protected transportation and hotels for DH deviations
- Improved pairing construction rules and limits
- Improved protections for trips that include All Night Flying
- Add Pay rig for long airport sits
- Increased average minimum day pay
- Improvements to OE blocker day pay and scheduling
- New premium pay option of 125% for straight pickup
- Improved contractual application of duty period extension Add Pay
- Advertised trips for drop now available to out of base pilots
- New option for pilot-to-pilot trip trades between pilots in different bases
04-13-2023 | 12:27 PM
#30
Line Holder
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 709
Likes: 6
From: 320 Captain
the Bus is doing mainline flying to cities that were very much mainline until the 2000’s. think 737-200 and 727 flying. No one was complaining about us flying these routes back then.
and by the way the guppy pays the same the first year and operates under the same UPA as the Bus and goes to all those same cities too. it even does 3 and 4 leg days and more ANF flying then the Bus does. So what’s the difference between the two for a first year pilot? Not much of anything.
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