Are we closer than we think?
05-27-2023 | 08:40 AM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 130
Likes: 0
I came after away reading last weeks 10 page update very encouraged that we are getting closer. Everything big in that update was not a bridge to far to get an agreement.
Then again, there were many who read the exact same update and felt like we are still years away.
Crazy how different perspectives people have reading the exact same document.
Then again, there were many who read the exact same update and felt like we are still years away.
Crazy how different perspectives people have reading the exact same document.
05-27-2023 | 08:43 AM
#12
Line Holder
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 299
Likes: 2
From: Gear *****
Kirby tried to sneak out of the BOD Thursday. Nope he went right thru the picket line. Gupta came out with Toby and looked like a whipped man! The PR spin from United is to "try" and get thru the summer. The 5% back last year was to get thru the holidays. Of course Kirby is saying were "close" 1 yard line. This guy seriously is delusional! The company has YET to respond to the sick time proposal on the last update. So you tell me are we close? See you at the next Picket!
Last edited by Ni hao; 05-27-2023 at 09:12 AM.
05-27-2023 | 08:46 AM
#13
Line Holder
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 819
Likes: 2
From: 756 left
I came after away reading last weeks 10 page update very encouraged that we are getting closer. Everything big in that update was not a bridge to far to get an agreement.
Then again, there were many who read the exact same update and felt like we are still years away.
Crazy how different perspectives people have reading the exact same document.
Then again, there were many who read the exact same update and felt like we are still years away.
Crazy how different perspectives people have reading the exact same document.
"It is not surprising, however, that it has become increasingly difficult to close out further items as they represent much more value than the completed items in the work already accomplished. The open items also make up some of the most crucial components to reaching an acceptable agreement."
05-27-2023 | 09:13 AM
#14
Line Holder
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 819
Likes: 2
From: 756 left
ALPA is saying we are still far apart. Kirby and Gupta are telling our upgrade classes they we are very close. I’m wondering if the truth is somewhere in the middle and maybe even closer.
There is a large push for mediation and a strike vote. I can’t see a legitimate reason to hold off on that if we are as far apart as ALPA says and the company is not moving…UNLESS we are a lot closer than they are saying.
Why would ALPA continue to say we’re far apart when the truth is we are much closer to a deal? To keep the troops riled up. The UAL pilot group is soft and we need to be angry so we can participate in the picketing and to keep the pressure up. If the pilot group knew we were very close then I feel like participation and resolve would go down.
The MEC meets this week to discuss mediation. I guess we will see if my theory is correct soon.
Anyone feel the same way or disagree?
There is a large push for mediation and a strike vote. I can’t see a legitimate reason to hold off on that if we are as far apart as ALPA says and the company is not moving…UNLESS we are a lot closer than they are saying.
Why would ALPA continue to say we’re far apart when the truth is we are much closer to a deal? To keep the troops riled up. The UAL pilot group is soft and we need to be angry so we can participate in the picketing and to keep the pressure up. If the pilot group knew we were very close then I feel like participation and resolve would go down.
The MEC meets this week to discuss mediation. I guess we will see if my theory is correct soon.
Anyone feel the same way or disagree?
Mitch Rapp, if you're out there somewhere, you might want to change your password. I think Sunvox got a hold of your account and is posting under your name.
05-27-2023 | 09:16 AM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 5,738
Likes: 5
From: Sleeping in the black swan’s nest.
I came after away reading last weeks 10 page update very encouraged that we are getting closer. Everything big in that update was not a bridge to far to get an agreement.
Then again, there were many who read the exact same update and felt like we are still years away.
Crazy how different perspectives people have reading the exact same document.
Then again, there were many who read the exact same update and felt like we are still years away.
Crazy how different perspectives people have reading the exact same document.
05-27-2023 | 09:36 AM
#16
Thread Starter
Banned
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 309
Likes: 0
You all make great points, especially SqwuakIdent and seeing it as the opposite.
The only thing that throws me off is why are we not moving on to mediation. If we are indeed so far apart and the company is not responding then it sounds like we are at impasse. I guess we will find out this week.
And someone else made the best point - I believe my union.
05-27-2023 | 09:38 AM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 130
Likes: 0
05-27-2023 | 10:22 AM
#18
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 552
Likes: 1
Bahahaha that made me laugh out loud!!!
You all make great points, especially SqwuakIdent and seeing it as the opposite.
The only thing that throws me off is why are we not moving on to mediation. If we are indeed so far apart and the company is not responding then it sounds like we are at impasse. I guess we will find out this week.
And someone else made the best point - I believe my union.
You all make great points, especially SqwuakIdent and seeing it as the opposite.
The only thing that throws me off is why are we not moving on to mediation. If we are indeed so far apart and the company is not responding then it sounds like we are at impasse. I guess we will find out this week.
And someone else made the best point - I believe my union.
05-27-2023 | 10:33 AM
#19
New Hire
Joined: Mar 2023
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Look at how many people are still roasting people in hot airplanes pre and post flight, putting on the show in first class, and being a little naive with every word from management (not just your post). They LOVE data and are watching fuel burn, sick calls, fatigue, single engine taxi, and NPS... if they can string us along with "we are close", "look at these new routes in denver", and "worlds largest airline by seat miles" they just might survive the summer. But if they don't survive the summer they are in the process of turning the screws on captain reserves domestically to the point that fatigue calls and sick calls will skyrocket and who do you think they will blame on cnbc when the operation implodes?
SKs "close" is delta rates with minor improvements sprinkled in leaving us behind almost the entire major airline category in work life balance. That isn't acceptable or worth our time considering. We will be living with these 600 pages of contract for the next 20 yrs long past Kirby or the next suit so we need to get it right. He will be retired in 20 yrs living on a lake while our pilots are being targeted for fsb assignments if we let him believe for one second that his definition of "close" is anywhere near acceptable. Fupm
SKs "close" is delta rates with minor improvements sprinkled in leaving us behind almost the entire major airline category in work life balance. That isn't acceptable or worth our time considering. We will be living with these 600 pages of contract for the next 20 yrs long past Kirby or the next suit so we need to get it right. He will be retired in 20 yrs living on a lake while our pilots are being targeted for fsb assignments if we let him believe for one second that his definition of "close" is anywhere near acceptable. Fupm
05-27-2023 | 10:41 AM
#20
Line Holder
Joined: Jul 2022
Posts: 1,592
Likes: 153
From: 787 FO
It amazes me that people still believe anything SK says. Here is the NC Update for those who seem to have missed it.
Negotiating Committee Position Report – May 22, 2023
Changes since the last “Position Report” noted in Gray Economic
The following are the main economic items proposed by ALPA along with the Company’s current position. In a normal bargaining cycle, economic items are traditionally closed out at the end of negotiations.
• ALPA proposed pay rates that exceed Delta. The proposed rates recognize the sacrifice that UAL pilots made during Covid while following a traditional pattern bargaining approach. The Company proposed a five-year agreement with pay rates that match Delta to the penny for the first four years with an additional increase in the 5th year (ALPA proposed a 4-year duration).
• ALPA proposed retroactive pay that exceeds Delta’s total value. The Company has offered equivalent Delta retroactive pay, but without full 401(k) contributions for the current year.
• ALPA proposed 401(k) Company contribution increases that exceed Delta. The Company has offered 401(k) contributions to match Delta excluding their Profit Sharing contribution.
• ALPA proposed a Profit Sharing formula that matches Delta and includes new hire pilots. The Company proposed no changes to the current Profit Sharing formula.
• ALPA proposed snap up provisions that keep UAL pilots at or above Delta and American pay rates if either of those airlines pay rates exceed our pay rates. The Company proposed a one-time snap up only if American exceeds Delta’s pay rates.
Below is a section-by-section summary of items in which ALPA and the Company have agreedorarestillnegotiating. Thislistisnotinclusiveofeveryitemthatweare negotiating.
Section 1—Recognition, Scope and Career Security
ALPA proposed additional Scope improvements, while the Company has not proposed any changes.
Agreed:
• Expanded furlough protection for all pilots
• Removal of 6 seats from all 76 seat RJs if a pilot that is on the seniority list at
date of signing is furloughed
Section 3—Compensation
In addition to the economic items listed above, the following are items already agreed upon or currently being negotiated.
Agreed:
• Holiday pay
• Short training pay and credit increase
• Increase in distance learning pay
• Increase in International Override
• Critical coverage override of 25%
Open Items:
• Long training pay and credit increase
• Vacation pay and credit increases
• Unaugmented night flying override
Section 4—Expenses, Lodging and Transportation
Much of Section 4 has been agreed upon, highlights include:
• Per diem rates
• Canada now included in international per diem
• Reimbursement for a second passport
• Increased parking reimbursement
• Improved crosstown pay
Open Items:
• Company provided hotels for early reports/late releases or trips on consecutive days
Section 5 and 20—Hours of Service and Scheduling of Flying Reserve
Agreed:
• No involuntary assignment before 10 a.m. on Day 1 of a reserve block
• Elimination of flexible day off (FDOs) for Global categories
• Option to split holy days off (HDOs) into two shorter periods in Global
categories
• Voluntary Long Call Reserve lines where short call (SC) and field standby (FSB)
is only through aggressive pick-up (APU)
• Reserves maintain original scheduled release time when deviating
• Increased restrictions on assigning Visiting Reserves
• All unused Short Call assignments receive 1 hour of additional minimum pay
guarantee (MPG)
• Trip trades between reserves
• Reserve day-for-day trades
• Add Pay for reserve rolled days off
• Add Pay for late build Short Calls
• Improved release times if unused on last day of reserve
• Add Pay for voluntary assignments that start prior to 10 a.m. on Day 1
• Increased pay for voluntary FSB
Open Items:
• Increase in number of reserve days off
• Increase in the daily value of reserve guarantee
• Pilot option to add an additional reserve day in high LPA months
• Short Call caps
• Elimination of FDOs for Basic categories
• Elimination of involuntary FSB
• Remove crew desk discretion from reserve assignment order
• Incentives to avoid involuntarily rolling of reserve days off
• Improved voluntary reserve options
• Improved Long Call and Short Call callout times
Reassignment
Agreed:
• Lineholder no longer involuntarily assigned FSB after loss of flying
• Improved opportunity to remain on your trip and avoid reassignment
• Stricter rules regarding reassignments transitioning your base on or after the
last day of your original trip
• Prohibit reassignment into golden day off (GDO)
• Continuous blocks of AV days will be treated as a single block
• Reimbursement for expenses if delayed into vacation block
• 777/787 all days off lost with first reassignment are restored
• All 756 days off lost with reassignments are restored
• DH only on day off eligible for day off restoration
• Improved lost day off restoration options
Open Items:
• Improved limits on AV replacement flying
• Additional hotel and Positive Space travel for AV replacement flying and
reassignments that arrive after original release time
• Reassignment Add Pay rig
• Overtime Add Pay rig
Miscellaneous
Agreed:
• G-line and LPA final within 24 hours of bid opening
• PBS timeline moved up two days
• Further reduced LPA during any involuntary furlough
• Protected transportation and hotels for DH deviations
• Improved pairing construction rules and limits
• Improved protections for trips that include All Night Flying
• Add Pay rig for long airport sits
• Add Pay rig for long duty days
• Increased average minimum day pay
• Improvements to OE blocker day pay and scheduling
• New premium pay option of 125% for straight pickup
• Improved contractual application of duty period extension Add Pay
• Advertised trips for drop now available to out of base pilots
• New option for pilot-to-pilot trip trades between pilots in different bases
• Improved trip mix formulas
Open Items:
• Minimum calendar day credit
• Addition of consolidation lines
• Limits on duty periods that contain a DH
• Eliminate 50% and 75% premium pick-up (Only option is 100% or greater)
Section 8—Staffing
Agreed:
• Freeze starts at vacancy award
• Activation date at completion of LOE
• Protections for senior pilots with cancelled vacancies
• Stricter seniority protections for base trades
• First time Captain paid move
Section 9—Training (Training Day value is in Section 3—Compensation) Agreed:
• Improved schedule protections for cancelled CQ training
• Add Pay for delayed training events
• Improved crew complement restrictions for training
Open Items:
• Requirement for first time Captains to complete full course
• Ability to preference long training schedule
Section 10—Moving Expenses
Agreed to increase the miscellaneous moving allowance from $3,000 to $6,000.
• Advanced eligibility for vacancy award, but must complete all prerequisites
before starting upgrade training
Section 11—Vacations (Vacation Day value is in Section 3—Compensation) Agreed:
• Protection for vacation when changing categories
• Annual vacation bidding improvements
Open Item:
• Automated vacation drops on a day-for-day basis
Section 12—Leaves of Absence
Agreed:
• Pilot not eligible for FMLA can take a Personal Leave with medical benefits for FMLA qualifying event
• Improvements to Parental Leave including a paid portion
• Improvements to Maternity Leave in addition to paid portion
Open Item:
• Application of State Laws
Section 13—Sick Leave
Open Items:
• Increased monthly accrual rate
• Increased rapid accrual
• Increased advance for new hires
• Sick bank not debited for first 90 days of an on-the-job injury (OJI)
Section 17--Grievance
Agreed:
• Requirement for documentation availability, space, and time to review
Open Items:
• Pay protection for disciplinary interviews
• Video conferencing for interviews at pilot/rep discretion
Section 21—General
Agreed:
• Second jumpseat on all new aircraft
• Codifies requirement to have two pilots on the flight deck Open Items:
• Medical freedoms
• Commuter Policy enhancements
Section 22 and 24—Retirement and Insurance
Agreed:
• Establishment of a Market Based Cash Balance Plan
• Vacation forfeiture deemed as eligible earnings for 401(k) contributions
• New reimbursement for FAA medical and increased reimbursement for EKG
• FAA required medical procedures not covered by insurance now covered by
long term disability (LTD) plan
Open Items:
• Increase PRAP contributions
• Reduced pilot share of LTD premiums
• Full retirement contributions while on LTD
• Reduced LTD waiting period
• Establish an LTD Plus Up program (Bridge from sick leave to LTD)
• Increase pilot life insurance benefit
• Increase HIMS LTD benefit
• New option for early withdrawal from PRAP
• Increase LTD cap
Section 23—Flight Instructors and Evaluators
Agreed:
• Improved schedules and increased pay override for line check pilots (LCPs); paid for entire trip
• Increased Instructor pay cap
• Increased instructor-evaluator (IE) overrides
• Improved schedules for IEs
• Provisions to allow job share for Instructors
Open Items:
• IE flight qualifications
LOA 12-01—Guam Flying
Agreed:
• Increase foreign base allowance to $3500
• Elimination of training travel proration days
• Reimburse losses or damage when shipping via United COMAT
Open Items:
• Define calendar day in Guam to be 0200—0159 LBT
• Eliminate minimum day carve out for overnight trips
Negotiating Committee Position Report – May 22, 2023
Changes since the last “Position Report” noted in Gray Economic
The following are the main economic items proposed by ALPA along with the Company’s current position. In a normal bargaining cycle, economic items are traditionally closed out at the end of negotiations.
• ALPA proposed pay rates that exceed Delta. The proposed rates recognize the sacrifice that UAL pilots made during Covid while following a traditional pattern bargaining approach. The Company proposed a five-year agreement with pay rates that match Delta to the penny for the first four years with an additional increase in the 5th year (ALPA proposed a 4-year duration).
• ALPA proposed retroactive pay that exceeds Delta’s total value. The Company has offered equivalent Delta retroactive pay, but without full 401(k) contributions for the current year.
• ALPA proposed 401(k) Company contribution increases that exceed Delta. The Company has offered 401(k) contributions to match Delta excluding their Profit Sharing contribution.
• ALPA proposed a Profit Sharing formula that matches Delta and includes new hire pilots. The Company proposed no changes to the current Profit Sharing formula.
• ALPA proposed snap up provisions that keep UAL pilots at or above Delta and American pay rates if either of those airlines pay rates exceed our pay rates. The Company proposed a one-time snap up only if American exceeds Delta’s pay rates.
Below is a section-by-section summary of items in which ALPA and the Company have agreedorarestillnegotiating. Thislistisnotinclusiveofeveryitemthatweare negotiating.
Section 1—Recognition, Scope and Career Security
ALPA proposed additional Scope improvements, while the Company has not proposed any changes.
Agreed:
• Expanded furlough protection for all pilots
• Removal of 6 seats from all 76 seat RJs if a pilot that is on the seniority list at
date of signing is furloughed
Section 3—Compensation
In addition to the economic items listed above, the following are items already agreed upon or currently being negotiated.
Agreed:
• Holiday pay
• Short training pay and credit increase
• Increase in distance learning pay
• Increase in International Override
• Critical coverage override of 25%
Open Items:
• Long training pay and credit increase
• Vacation pay and credit increases
• Unaugmented night flying override
Section 4—Expenses, Lodging and Transportation
Much of Section 4 has been agreed upon, highlights include:
• Per diem rates
• Canada now included in international per diem
• Reimbursement for a second passport
• Increased parking reimbursement
• Improved crosstown pay
Open Items:
• Company provided hotels for early reports/late releases or trips on consecutive days
Section 5 and 20—Hours of Service and Scheduling of Flying Reserve
Agreed:
• No involuntary assignment before 10 a.m. on Day 1 of a reserve block
• Elimination of flexible day off (FDOs) for Global categories
• Option to split holy days off (HDOs) into two shorter periods in Global
categories
• Voluntary Long Call Reserve lines where short call (SC) and field standby (FSB)
is only through aggressive pick-up (APU)
• Reserves maintain original scheduled release time when deviating
• Increased restrictions on assigning Visiting Reserves
• All unused Short Call assignments receive 1 hour of additional minimum pay
guarantee (MPG)
• Trip trades between reserves
• Reserve day-for-day trades
• Add Pay for reserve rolled days off
• Add Pay for late build Short Calls
• Improved release times if unused on last day of reserve
• Add Pay for voluntary assignments that start prior to 10 a.m. on Day 1
• Increased pay for voluntary FSB
Open Items:
• Increase in number of reserve days off
• Increase in the daily value of reserve guarantee
• Pilot option to add an additional reserve day in high LPA months
• Short Call caps
• Elimination of FDOs for Basic categories
• Elimination of involuntary FSB
• Remove crew desk discretion from reserve assignment order
• Incentives to avoid involuntarily rolling of reserve days off
• Improved voluntary reserve options
• Improved Long Call and Short Call callout times
Reassignment
Agreed:
• Lineholder no longer involuntarily assigned FSB after loss of flying
• Improved opportunity to remain on your trip and avoid reassignment
• Stricter rules regarding reassignments transitioning your base on or after the
last day of your original trip
• Prohibit reassignment into golden day off (GDO)
• Continuous blocks of AV days will be treated as a single block
• Reimbursement for expenses if delayed into vacation block
• 777/787 all days off lost with first reassignment are restored
• All 756 days off lost with reassignments are restored
• DH only on day off eligible for day off restoration
• Improved lost day off restoration options
Open Items:
• Improved limits on AV replacement flying
• Additional hotel and Positive Space travel for AV replacement flying and
reassignments that arrive after original release time
• Reassignment Add Pay rig
• Overtime Add Pay rig
Miscellaneous
Agreed:
• G-line and LPA final within 24 hours of bid opening
• PBS timeline moved up two days
• Further reduced LPA during any involuntary furlough
• Protected transportation and hotels for DH deviations
• Improved pairing construction rules and limits
• Improved protections for trips that include All Night Flying
• Add Pay rig for long airport sits
• Add Pay rig for long duty days
• Increased average minimum day pay
• Improvements to OE blocker day pay and scheduling
• New premium pay option of 125% for straight pickup
• Improved contractual application of duty period extension Add Pay
• Advertised trips for drop now available to out of base pilots
• New option for pilot-to-pilot trip trades between pilots in different bases
• Improved trip mix formulas
Open Items:
• Minimum calendar day credit
• Addition of consolidation lines
• Limits on duty periods that contain a DH
• Eliminate 50% and 75% premium pick-up (Only option is 100% or greater)
Section 8—Staffing
Agreed:
• Freeze starts at vacancy award
• Activation date at completion of LOE
• Protections for senior pilots with cancelled vacancies
• Stricter seniority protections for base trades
• First time Captain paid move
Section 9—Training (Training Day value is in Section 3—Compensation) Agreed:
• Improved schedule protections for cancelled CQ training
• Add Pay for delayed training events
• Improved crew complement restrictions for training
Open Items:
• Requirement for first time Captains to complete full course
• Ability to preference long training schedule
Section 10—Moving Expenses
Agreed to increase the miscellaneous moving allowance from $3,000 to $6,000.
• Advanced eligibility for vacancy award, but must complete all prerequisites
before starting upgrade training
Section 11—Vacations (Vacation Day value is in Section 3—Compensation) Agreed:
• Protection for vacation when changing categories
• Annual vacation bidding improvements
Open Item:
• Automated vacation drops on a day-for-day basis
Section 12—Leaves of Absence
Agreed:
• Pilot not eligible for FMLA can take a Personal Leave with medical benefits for FMLA qualifying event
• Improvements to Parental Leave including a paid portion
• Improvements to Maternity Leave in addition to paid portion
Open Item:
• Application of State Laws
Section 13—Sick Leave
Open Items:
• Increased monthly accrual rate
• Increased rapid accrual
• Increased advance for new hires
• Sick bank not debited for first 90 days of an on-the-job injury (OJI)
Section 17--Grievance
Agreed:
• Requirement for documentation availability, space, and time to review
Open Items:
• Pay protection for disciplinary interviews
• Video conferencing for interviews at pilot/rep discretion
Section 21—General
Agreed:
• Second jumpseat on all new aircraft
• Codifies requirement to have two pilots on the flight deck Open Items:
• Medical freedoms
• Commuter Policy enhancements
Section 22 and 24—Retirement and Insurance
Agreed:
• Establishment of a Market Based Cash Balance Plan
• Vacation forfeiture deemed as eligible earnings for 401(k) contributions
• New reimbursement for FAA medical and increased reimbursement for EKG
• FAA required medical procedures not covered by insurance now covered by
long term disability (LTD) plan
Open Items:
• Increase PRAP contributions
• Reduced pilot share of LTD premiums
• Full retirement contributions while on LTD
• Reduced LTD waiting period
• Establish an LTD Plus Up program (Bridge from sick leave to LTD)
• Increase pilot life insurance benefit
• Increase HIMS LTD benefit
• New option for early withdrawal from PRAP
• Increase LTD cap
Section 23—Flight Instructors and Evaluators
Agreed:
• Improved schedules and increased pay override for line check pilots (LCPs); paid for entire trip
• Increased Instructor pay cap
• Increased instructor-evaluator (IE) overrides
• Improved schedules for IEs
• Provisions to allow job share for Instructors
Open Items:
• IE flight qualifications
LOA 12-01—Guam Flying
Agreed:
• Increase foreign base allowance to $3500
• Elimination of training travel proration days
• Reimburse losses or damage when shipping via United COMAT
Open Items:
• Define calendar day in Guam to be 0200—0159 LBT
• Eliminate minimum day carve out for overnight trips
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