Pros / Cons
 

After seeing the TA, what do you think the MEC will say in defense of the forced upgrade issue?

Do you think there's a unique benefit in the TA that offsets the concession?

18 MEC members and I would guess 90% of the pilot group don't see this as a concession.

The FACT team training videos provided by the union go a little deeper on what needs to happen in order for a "forced upgrade" to occur. They are saying that after the appropriate QWL improvements are introduced (implementation schedule for this provision is not till Fall '24) that several layers of protections are in place in order to award the CA upgrade to a person senior to the new hire including worst case scenario offering it to people in the new hire class that actually do want the upgrade, thereby removing the notion and the probability that anyone would get junior manned into the position. There's two types of ways people will see this....their way and how they've formulated this in their head negatively believing the sky will fall or the actual way the negotiating committee intended it to be, albeit controversial, and it depends if your glass is half empty or half full. Regionals have been junior manning CAs for years (SkyWest, Mesa etc...) and their pilots don't have the support system provided to CAs here - including the 100 hour OE clause and the fact that they still have to pass training, their line check and the FAA observation.

I highly doubt there will be forced upgrades
new hires will jump all over to get a captain class

don’t be fool about this forced BS

Correct, and this MEC vote solidified that we have a very loud minority of pilots who combined, were No voters from the start just to make a statement (including two of our reps) and/or did not truly understand or want to understand all the language despite clarification from the FACT team over and over again, and who do not see that no matter the leverage, you cannot get a 100% personalized bouquet of flowers hand picked and delivered to your bed with a cosmopolitan breakfast every day - and it just shows that to some people, no matter what positives, they will only focus on the negatives while pouring their suckage on the rest of the pilot group as they will never be happy no matter what you throw at them. Delta had this same issue when they vote on their TA, despite the general consensus that their contract is the gold standard.

As one of those NH pilots coming here with a lot of 121 PIC time a few years back I was awarded an aircraft with a seat lock. This is also that, and one can bid back to something else after about the 2 year mark. But this also comes with an astonishing pay bump, mandatory right seat time for at least 4 months, and 100 hours of OE, meaning you’re going to be darn close to 1 year best case before your training wheels are off. I would have been more than happy, honored and motivated to do well, if this is what I was given off the bat. You also have to have no significant dings during training and any short cycle disqualifies you. I think someone with a relatively similar background would be ready at that point and I would welcome them, and suspect if/when these trigger it also gets the gears turning to get some of our senior WB FOs contemplating the transition themselves. I don’t see this as a bad thing and as others have said, historically this doesn’t remotely happen and upgrade to that most jr spot is usually 5-10 years or more.

It’s not a concession. As explained above, there are a lot of things that have to occur before it’s allowed to be used. There’s absolutely no argument to made about safety, because a 300 hour FO upgrading with a 100 hour IOE is a hell of a lot better than where we currently live with 500 hours of experience and the standard 25 hours of LCP supervision.

Anybody voting no for this thing has lost their damn mind.

If the idea of a 300 hour on property new hire wearing four stripes bothers you, then chances are you’ve been hanging out in the bunk for way too long. Bid upgrade and show us all how it’s done.

Really.

I’m not saying that to be sarcastic or ornery, I genuinely mean it. Career bunkies should do everybody a favor and start sharing their experience with our new pilots.

Just to be clear you don’t have to pass the FAA observation. The FAA can bust you but with retraining you can be passed by a company APD without another FAA ride. Delta has done this!

Close. The FAA "ride" is not pass/fail. It's an observation. The new Captain is either in command of the aircraft or they're not. If they're not, there's some more IOE with an emphasis on that area, then another observation ride. Also, APD's or evaluators have nothing to do with the process. It's either a actual fed, or a QC in the jumpseat.

You can't fail it, because it's not a jeopardy event.

It’s a concession. Right now, everyone can decide when to bid CA. Why would we let the company assign it to someone that doesn’t choose it?

Are people so scared that others will vote no, that you have to pretend this isn’t a concession? Those saying it takes a number of steps first, or that it won’t be implemented til later, or volunteers will reduce the number of forced upgrades, are ignoring the fact that it’s a concession. TUMI pitch men were telling us “we don’t think the company will do that” or “…very often” with the concessions in that POS. Let’s not do that.