Lots of bad info right now especially WRT stovepiping. In this hypothetical merger here are the ground rules.

1) You cannot leapfrog or be leapfrogged by anyone on your current list. You will always be junior to everyone you are junior to right now and senior to everyone you are senior to right now on your current list.

2) Stovepiping simply helps figure out where each portion of the list would be if they bid the highest thing they could hold with their seniority. So if number 100 on a 10000 pilot list is a WBFO but being could be a WBCA it just helps to show where they’d be. It’s a tool to help organize a list with people all “out of order” if you will. Conversely your junior NBCA might actually be a NBFO. Rule 1 still applies.

3) The 2 lists essentially get zippered together. Where everyone zippers in is a result of whatever magical weight the aribitrator applies to each element considered (seat, airplane, longevity, etc). The stovepiping gives an idea of where the WBCA jobs would fall on each list, NBCA on each list and so on. So a starting point of where to try and fit each list and then adjust for whatever else the arbitrator deems significant.

When UAL and CAL merged there was a no flush/no bump in effect. So no one was forced out of whatever seat they were in at the SLI. Once the SLI was done anyone could bid whatever they wanted and could hold as long as it wasn’t fenced. CAL couldn’t go to the 747 and UAL couldn’t go to the 787.

This is not hard. There will be a blank list with every available pilot slot ranked in order of pay. The pilots will be inserted into that list in seniority order. This places each pilot in the highest paying position they would hold if every pilot bid the highest seat position. This list will be used to determine the integrated list and the various ratios that might be used to construct a new list. No one’s seniority number or seat position changes within your list. There will be no leapfrogging, bumping or flushing. It’s strictly an exercise to show what each airline brings to the table for integration arguments.

End of thread. Ignore anything else anyone else says.


If you're #2900 on your seniority list you will stay #2900 on your seniority list. No one junior to you in your company will suddenly become senior to you just because they want to be a junior Captain while you enjoy being a senior First Officer.

Solid, thanks for the clarification!

PS for commuters isn’t a contract improvement for me. It’s wasted negotiating capital for things I actually do care about. I said it was an entitlement for YOU. But we finished that discussion.

A gain that would benefit a large portion (maybe half? More than half depending on the base?) of our pilot group IS an improvement. You just don’t like it. But like I said, I’ll make sure to remind you that you’re being entitled when you ask for contract improvements. As you said though, we finished that discussion.

Not everything in the contract is going to matter for everyone… But it will be available if a time ever arises that you might benefit from it….

As a commuter, it would be great to have it…. But I am not going to die on the hill for it…

UA fares are your friend. :)

Sometimes… Not always..

Just an outsider, ALK/HAL is my third merger. If everyone felt screwed and no one was happy, that’s probably about as fair a result as could have been achieved.