UAL 787 early- mid 2012
#41
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,559
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From: A Nobody
If you want to know what things the manufacturers and the industry believe is worth aborting for up to V1 look at what is inhibited in high speed range. Even the old 767/757 technology gives us a hint:
"The beeper and master CAUTION lights are inhibited, for all cautions, during a portion of the takeoff. The inhibit begins at 80 knots and ends when the airplane reaches 400 feet RA or 20 seconds after nose strut extension, whichever occurs first. If the takeoff is rejected above 80 knots, the inhibit is removed when the airplane slows below 75 knots. If the caution still exists when the inhibit is removed, both master CAUTION lights and the beeper activate."
The fire bell and lights are only inhibited upon "strut extension until reaching 400 feet RA or for 20 seconds, whichever occurs first."
PWS
"During takeoff, the PWS inhibits new caution alerts between 80 knots and 400 feet AGL, and new warning alerts between 100 knots and 50 feet AGL." So prior to 100knots a Windshear warning will sound out!
What it looks like to me is the manufacturers and industry wants us to abort for the following after 80 knots (and up to 100 for severe windshear):
Fires, Engine failures (no warning just big bangs and swerves), and severe windshear at minimum.
They never recommend aborting for blown tires in a high speed range (80knots+ ?) because braking and stopping becomes questionable.
The big thing is to have a plan of action every takeoff.
Boy it turned into a PC, didn't it.
"The beeper and master CAUTION lights are inhibited, for all cautions, during a portion of the takeoff. The inhibit begins at 80 knots and ends when the airplane reaches 400 feet RA or 20 seconds after nose strut extension, whichever occurs first. If the takeoff is rejected above 80 knots, the inhibit is removed when the airplane slows below 75 knots. If the caution still exists when the inhibit is removed, both master CAUTION lights and the beeper activate."
The fire bell and lights are only inhibited upon "strut extension until reaching 400 feet RA or for 20 seconds, whichever occurs first."
PWS
"During takeoff, the PWS inhibits new caution alerts between 80 knots and 400 feet AGL, and new warning alerts between 100 knots and 50 feet AGL." So prior to 100knots a Windshear warning will sound out!
What it looks like to me is the manufacturers and industry wants us to abort for the following after 80 knots (and up to 100 for severe windshear):
Fires, Engine failures (no warning just big bangs and swerves), and severe windshear at minimum.
They never recommend aborting for blown tires in a high speed range (80knots+ ?) because braking and stopping becomes questionable.
The big thing is to have a plan of action every takeoff.
Boy it turned into a PC, didn't it.
#42
On Reserve
Joined: Jul 2008
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We had the 787 fleet ops manager on our jumpseat last week. He said they have a meeting with boeing in 2 weeks in which they are going to update them on the delivery status. He said they think they will have deliveries starting early 2012 but at a faster rate then originally...if we where willing to take them faster.
So the captain and I speculated that the system bid was delayed for the 787 update. Ok there is my contribution to rumors.
So the captain and I speculated that the system bid was delayed for the 787 update. Ok there is my contribution to rumors.
#43
We had the 787 fleet ops manager on our jumpseat last week. He said they have a meeting with boeing in 2 weeks in which they are going to update them on the delivery status. He said they think they will have deliveries starting early 2012 but at a faster rate then originally...if we where willing to take them faster.
So the captain and I speculated that the system bid was delayed for the 787 update. Ok there is my contribution to rumors.
So the captain and I speculated that the system bid was delayed for the 787 update. Ok there is my contribution to rumors.

#44
I heard from a check airman that under the monitored approach scenario at the combined company CAL will adopt the UAL method of doing them: the FO landing instead of doing the go-around/missed approach if needed.
I have a real problem with this. As it stands now (at CAL), the FO is the flying pilot for the approach and is looking at the instruments and is primed for the missed approach while the CA is monitoring and looking out for indications that the requirements exist to land. The CA transitions to looking outside as minimums approach to get acclimated and moves the FO's hands when he feels landing is appropriate.
Under this other method, the FO in a low-altitude, low-visibility regime, has to continue to fly (yes, via AP) and move eyes in and out to verify acft function while trying to find/see the lighting and determine visibility exists to land. You don't think the captain is also going to be looking out as well and therefore both pilots are being distracted from the task of watching the airplane at such a crucial stage of flight?
If this is true, which the check airman said it is, I have major issues with this method. The CAL guys have supposedly been fighting this change in the meetings but aren't making headway. Obviously, United's operations in these conditions have done just as well as ours, but I truly feel that one method is safer than the other.
Just my opinion of course, but alas I am but a cog in the great wheel.
I have a real problem with this. As it stands now (at CAL), the FO is the flying pilot for the approach and is looking at the instruments and is primed for the missed approach while the CA is monitoring and looking out for indications that the requirements exist to land. The CA transitions to looking outside as minimums approach to get acclimated and moves the FO's hands when he feels landing is appropriate.
Under this other method, the FO in a low-altitude, low-visibility regime, has to continue to fly (yes, via AP) and move eyes in and out to verify acft function while trying to find/see the lighting and determine visibility exists to land. You don't think the captain is also going to be looking out as well and therefore both pilots are being distracted from the task of watching the airplane at such a crucial stage of flight?
If this is true, which the check airman said it is, I have major issues with this method. The CAL guys have supposedly been fighting this change in the meetings but aren't making headway. Obviously, United's operations in these conditions have done just as well as ours, but I truly feel that one method is safer than the other.
Just my opinion of course, but alas I am but a cog in the great wheel.
#45
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,559
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From: A Nobody
EWR:
Well I am a UA guy for a lot of decades and the "monitored approach" is no more. What you have been told is wrong and no where near the UA procedures, so fret not.
In approaches less than 1800 RVR/1/2 mile the Captain makes the landings.
On all CII/III approaches the F/O monitors the FMAs and proper autoland equipment annunciations and performance. Should any fail during the approach and prior to landing the F/O should say "Go-Around."
The Captain lands (if one can say it is a landing in autoland) and looks for all outside visual clues and references. Essentially the Captain is holding the controls and making sure the airplane is tracking and doing what it should down to taxi speed.
So rest assure the F/O does not "monitor" and land.
You will find the procedure works very well.
Well I am a UA guy for a lot of decades and the "monitored approach" is no more. What you have been told is wrong and no where near the UA procedures, so fret not.
In approaches less than 1800 RVR/1/2 mile the Captain makes the landings.
On all CII/III approaches the F/O monitors the FMAs and proper autoland equipment annunciations and performance. Should any fail during the approach and prior to landing the F/O should say "Go-Around."
The Captain lands (if one can say it is a landing in autoland) and looks for all outside visual clues and references. Essentially the Captain is holding the controls and making sure the airplane is tracking and doing what it should down to taxi speed.
So rest assure the F/O does not "monitor" and land.
You will find the procedure works very well.
#46
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,559
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From: A Nobody
EWR:
Another thing:
Essentially the Captain has the controls during the finale phase of the approach (at least sometime before or after the airplane is fully configured for the approach), it is the F/O who is monitoring and verifying the equipment so a last minute change of control, like you mention, will not happen.
What you are currently doing was out dated with the autoland and is a hold over from the old Cat II days when the Captain took the airplane and had to disconnect the A/P to manual land after 100' RA.
Another thing:
Essentially the Captain has the controls during the finale phase of the approach (at least sometime before or after the airplane is fully configured for the approach), it is the F/O who is monitoring and verifying the equipment so a last minute change of control, like you mention, will not happen.
What you are currently doing was out dated with the autoland and is a hold over from the old Cat II days when the Captain took the airplane and had to disconnect the A/P to manual land after 100' RA.
#47
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,415
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From: B-777 left
Ewr, sounds like your ca are like some of ours just dh around the system spreading rumors and collecting a fat check. Regular guy has our procedures on the money and we changed from that monitored approach along time ago.
#48
HOSED BY PBS AGAIN
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,713
Likes: 0
#49
EWR:
Well I am a UA guy for a lot of decades and the "monitored approach" is no more. What you have been told is wrong and no where near the UA procedures, so fret not.
In approaches less than 1800 RVR/1/2 mile the Captain makes the landings.
On all CII/III approaches the F/O monitors the FMAs and proper autoland equipment annunciations and performance. Should any fail during the approach and prior to landing the F/O should say "Go-Around."
The Captain lands (if one can say it is a landing in autoland) and looks for all outside visual clues and references. Essentially the Captain is holding the controls and making sure the airplane is tracking and doing what it should down to taxi speed.
So rest assure the F/O does not "monitor" and land.
You will find the procedure works very well.
Well I am a UA guy for a lot of decades and the "monitored approach" is no more. What you have been told is wrong and no where near the UA procedures, so fret not.
In approaches less than 1800 RVR/1/2 mile the Captain makes the landings.
On all CII/III approaches the F/O monitors the FMAs and proper autoland equipment annunciations and performance. Should any fail during the approach and prior to landing the F/O should say "Go-Around."
The Captain lands (if one can say it is a landing in autoland) and looks for all outside visual clues and references. Essentially the Captain is holding the controls and making sure the airplane is tracking and doing what it should down to taxi speed.
So rest assure the F/O does not "monitor" and land.
You will find the procedure works very well.
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