EWR737FO:

"The point is we have pilots on both sides of the table that simply love to CONTROL pilots."

After 33 years in this business here is why we have work rules:

If the cap is 100 hours and there are no restrictions preventing the Co. from flying 100 then you will not have any control over your life.

If the spread between minimum lines and max is too big then you will have no idea how much flying you will do or not do.

Many pilots will fly extremely fatigued just to get 100 hours. Where is the "safety" in that?

The "CONTROL" is so you (or I) won't walk over the top of your fellow pilot for personal greed!

 

If mgt had it their way we would all be flying say 150 hours per month like some of our FA's do. Contract limits are to protect you in more ways then one...

 

Your missing the point. Who gets to determine this and how? Why is 82 better than 85? I don't want others to take advantage or jobs from others just to pad a paycheck but in the same instance, I have a problem with someone telling me how much I can or can't make and telling me what salary I need to live on that makes me happy or pays my bills. Try telling a doctor or dentist they could only work xx hours a month and see how that goes over.

 

It's called a Union. We the pilots collectively decide what is appropriate. Be it either a contract or strike vote. You have to take the good with the bad.

What do you think life would be without a union, ALPA or any other? At United, I can refuse an airplane without any fear of reprisal. How would your schedule look without a Union? Yes, it is bad enough, but how about 100hr mo, 15 hr days, and 7 days off/mo? Do I need to mention pay? Do you think your skill set would be compensated "fairly?"

I'm not happy that this management places such little value on our profession. That shows a lack of respect. In my personal life however, money does not buy happiness, it buys comfort. It is the comfort that we will collectively achieve as a group of pilots.

 

ST agree 100%
Additionally, the reason people have a problem with limits is they're thinking about themselves over the group or team.
What they need to deal with is we're like a team sport and DR/DDS/ESQ are individual sports.
They work off billable hours and those hours don't negatively affect their coworkers or alter
their relationship to governing bodies like mgmt., the ATA (ex-mgmt.) or the FAA, the DOT or political lobbying.
Whether people want to admit it or not, it's obvious there are mgmt./bankers/lawyers/lobbyists who salivate at us flying 120hrs. a month.
If being an individual and flying extra is so important, go back to flight instructing or flying charter.

 

A little off topic, but what is amazing to me is how many people I work with think U.S. Airlines are governed under a "Free Market". Mgt pushes this idea. The fact is, most of our competition are Airlines outside the U.S. and are heavily subsidized by their Government . Free Market my A$$.

 

The union and the company determine the number, based on years of collecting the data of what happens when people fly too much or too little. In life, there are limits. Some seem a little too arbitrary too you, but that's just the way it is. What is your solution? FAR's? No thanks! Why is that limit more acceptable to you than a negotiated limit of 82, 85, etc? No limit?? I'd love to be junior in that company!! Holy moly!!

 

Estimate how much more you would earn by flying 5 additional hours per month. Then subtract the amount you would lose from career stagnation caused by everyone senior to you flying 5 additional hours per month. Raising the cap might cost you both QOL and career earnings.

 

Then why not lower the cap to 76 or 63 or pick your own number? How many additional CA seats could be created by every pilot only flying 50 a month? Again, the argument is not what people are flying, its the desire of those few to control many. And if being an individual is an ugly thing, then so be it. I refuse to be a lemming. Flying and pay are always two different things and I would never want FAR's to be our limits but I find the group mentality as to what the collective pilot individual "comfort" level should be, IMO, distasteful.

To take the good with the bad, as mentioned before, we already do. CAL allows pilots to fly as little as possible or as much as possible. We have a large number of pilots that drop to the min and a large number that fly 120+. Most fly an average range between 74-88 hours as seen with the PBS ranges. I see an individual(s) desire to narrow this to a very limited range as unacceptable. Pilots situations, desires, needs, and wants constantly change. To "lump" all pilots into a very narrow band will never allow these individual changes to be modified.

We do need guidelines and work rules to prevent pilots from harming themselves and from taking advantage of a situation during downturns. The union and the company are both necessary evils and what we as pilots collectively request of the negotiating process is generally what we end up with, more or less.

 

EWR737

"I have a problem with someone telling me how much I can or can't make and telling me what salary I need to live on that makes me happy or pays my bills."

Then you need to leave this business and become a Doctor and let the HMOs tell you how much you will make.

Dude, when I started in this business the average line was 75 hours of pay and when it jumped to 78 it was considered a big concession.

You are part of a craft and class of workers and collective bargaining is part of the process. Now if you want to make more money there are many avenues outside of your job which will help you with your desires.

Sounds harsh to say such things but the ideas you express here are the very things management will exploit to drive a wedge and drive down the wages and benefits. If they had their way you would be given the "opportunity" to work more.