TPA L-UAL MEC update
12-31-2011 | 08:14 AM
#11
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Joined: Jan 2011
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Your profit sharing? Sorry, you're right. I didn't earn anything this year, especially after the summer of crediting close to 300 hours on reserve due to lack of crew planning and having my life messed with. I mean I did it all for fun and the goodness of my heart so that YOU could get more money in your pocket. Sounds like a management position: get the big rewards for all the hard work of others.
I apologize if that offends, but your statement really ticks me off. And my response is completely outside my personal opinions of profit sharing and how I view it as a negotiating tool.
Just like we can't bid the Bus to stay in our bases because we don't fly those planes. I've not met one pilot who is chomping at the bit to get into DEN or ORD. BTW, what makes ORD really any better than EWR? DEN I could see. Are you really that naive to think that management wasn't going to terminate the base/domicile protections? Most anyone could see that coming when this thing was signed.
Nope, not taking away any of the profit sharing that you earned and negotiated. I know it is hard to comprehend but our side of the operation is making profits, too. You are getting access to our bases as well. Since we can't bid each others equipment it means all of our lives get upended.
I thought it was the younger generation with the me, me, me mentality, but I guess we have to look in the mirror to see where they get it from.
You are playing management's game brilliantly, keeping the focus off US vs THEM. I understand your anger and respect your opinion, but it is misdirected IMHO.
I apologize if that offends, but your statement really ticks me off. And my response is completely outside my personal opinions of profit sharing and how I view it as a negotiating tool.
Just like we can't bid the Bus to stay in our bases because we don't fly those planes. I've not met one pilot who is chomping at the bit to get into DEN or ORD. BTW, what makes ORD really any better than EWR? DEN I could see. Are you really that naive to think that management wasn't going to terminate the base/domicile protections? Most anyone could see that coming when this thing was signed.
Nope, not taking away any of the profit sharing that you earned and negotiated. I know it is hard to comprehend but our side of the operation is making profits, too. You are getting access to our bases as well. Since we can't bid each others equipment it means all of our lives get upended.
I thought it was the younger generation with the me, me, me mentality, but I guess we have to look in the mirror to see where they get it from.
You are playing management's game brilliantly, keeping the focus off US vs THEM. I understand your anger and respect your opinion, but it is misdirected IMHO.
How can you justify giving CAL pilots $40 million ON TOP of their current contract while UAL guys get NO IMPROVEMENT?
The ONLY reason the company gave up this money is to DIVIDE the pilot group.
It's working......
12-31-2011 | 08:19 AM
#12
Banned
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 690
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From: IAH 737 CA
CAL has never cared about UAL or it's dedicated employees...............Now you ask a CAL pilot and you will find them chomping on the bit to transfer to DEN and ORD over our dead bodies! History has shown this at CAL............... They will pick the UAL pilots bones in a heartbeat....................... They are getting OUR bankruptcy profit sharing, they are getting our domiciles and we get......ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.
Now, lets take a walk down memory lane................UAL and CAL in Denver. How about staging United ticket agents next to Continental's ticket counters approaching them to attempt to switch them to fly on United? How about bogus bookings and re-bookings on Continental from United even though the paxs were still on United flights? How about several months of ticket hold backs and then dumping them all at once on Continental to continue to try and bleed their cash reserves? How about taking Continental paxs rental cars or blocking the lot? How about the buttons ALL the United employees wore with clever little terms like, "One less airline can make a difference", or "Screw Continental", or "TORQUE"? How about the taxi speed coming and going to the gate or the intentional cutoffs on taxiways from United aircraft? I'm not even go over the "brain surgeon" episode with Frontier.
Look, no one at CAL is wishing you or any other UAL pilot/employee any ill will. I'm simply pointing out that before you go down this road, you might want to look in your rear view mirror first.
We are in this together. I don't like that we had to give up the possibility of another grievance but a lessened victory is still a victory. How would you have reacted if we didn't get profit sharing but we won the 767 grievance and the arbitrator awarded the CAL pilots only? This is not going to be a perfect or easy merger but throwing stones like that sure as hell isn't helping.
12-31-2011 | 08:31 AM
#13
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Joined: Nov 2011
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From: EWR B737FO
Well in case anyone is still king the Koolade thinking this merger is good for UAL, the bell is ringing and it's time to wake up!
CAL has never cared about UAL or it's dedicated employees. They wanted our cash and Tilton wanted to screw us by handing is over to a schmuck management team who was sure to rape each and every one of us at UAL.
So they are very willing to give CAL pilots the profit sharing we earned by enduring a horrible bankruptcy but wait, they never had to go through a draconian experience as we have yet they get our compensatory profit sharing??? So CAL is willing to allow their pilots to bid into ORD and DEN and wherever they elect to put the guppy, the very plane UAL parked yet we are going to be forced to commute from our current domiciles to armpits like IAH, EWR or CLE let alone Guam! Do you see the trend? Give CAL pilots what they want and do so by taking from UAL! Let's see how this would work out now. As a Bus guy in ORD who lives in Chicago, I'm forced to either commute to say IAH or bid another seat in ORD, but wait, I can't bid a guppy seat in ORD cause we don't fly them and CAL does. Hmmmm, sounds like leverage for the management, ie scamanagement here at the new UAL, or rather CAL with more UAL cash. Seriously how bad can a management team be? What separates us from SWA is their management. They pull on the same rope and succeed while getting paid more and being treated with honest to goodness respect....what a concept. The new UAL team doesn't give a crap about the employees, especially the legacy UAL ones as is evident by ACTIONS, not words or paint! Really, you can't do it so badly unless you do so on purpose! Each and every time we say "it can't get any worse", it always, without fail, DOES! Think about it, an honest management team with some modicum of integrity would happily consider it's employees plights when making policy and domicile decisions but these boobs refuse to even acknowledge the hardships we will be forced to live under. Now you ask a CAL pilot and you will find them chomping on the bit to transfer to DEN and ORD over our dead bodies! Trust me on this, we are brethren until they get a golden deal at our expense. History has shown this at CAL. They will pick the UAL pilots bones in a heartbeat. They are getting OUR bankruptcy profit sharing, they are getting our domiciles and we get......ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. The CAL MEC should have refused anything from these morons unless UAL pilots get the some measure of benefit commensurate to Them but NO, they are probably celebrating a gain. CAL MEC lacks integrity and has proven that all the BS talking points are just that, BS. Actions will ALWAYS speak louder than words, ALWAYS!
CAL has never cared about UAL or it's dedicated employees. They wanted our cash and Tilton wanted to screw us by handing is over to a schmuck management team who was sure to rape each and every one of us at UAL.
So they are very willing to give CAL pilots the profit sharing we earned by enduring a horrible bankruptcy but wait, they never had to go through a draconian experience as we have yet they get our compensatory profit sharing??? So CAL is willing to allow their pilots to bid into ORD and DEN and wherever they elect to put the guppy, the very plane UAL parked yet we are going to be forced to commute from our current domiciles to armpits like IAH, EWR or CLE let alone Guam! Do you see the trend? Give CAL pilots what they want and do so by taking from UAL! Let's see how this would work out now. As a Bus guy in ORD who lives in Chicago, I'm forced to either commute to say IAH or bid another seat in ORD, but wait, I can't bid a guppy seat in ORD cause we don't fly them and CAL does. Hmmmm, sounds like leverage for the management, ie scamanagement here at the new UAL, or rather CAL with more UAL cash. Seriously how bad can a management team be? What separates us from SWA is their management. They pull on the same rope and succeed while getting paid more and being treated with honest to goodness respect....what a concept. The new UAL team doesn't give a crap about the employees, especially the legacy UAL ones as is evident by ACTIONS, not words or paint! Really, you can't do it so badly unless you do so on purpose! Each and every time we say "it can't get any worse", it always, without fail, DOES! Think about it, an honest management team with some modicum of integrity would happily consider it's employees plights when making policy and domicile decisions but these boobs refuse to even acknowledge the hardships we will be forced to live under. Now you ask a CAL pilot and you will find them chomping on the bit to transfer to DEN and ORD over our dead bodies! Trust me on this, we are brethren until they get a golden deal at our expense. History has shown this at CAL. They will pick the UAL pilots bones in a heartbeat. They are getting OUR bankruptcy profit sharing, they are getting our domiciles and we get......ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. The CAL MEC should have refused anything from these morons unless UAL pilots get the some measure of benefit commensurate to Them but NO, they are probably celebrating a gain. CAL MEC lacks integrity and has proven that all the BS talking points are just that, BS. Actions will ALWAYS speak louder than words, ALWAYS!
affected as well because 737 flying will be moved to other locations. Do concur, that mgt does not care about any employee group both CAL and UAL...that we can agree on
12-31-2011 | 08:41 AM
#14
Line Holder
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 81
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From: 767 Capt
What he is referring too is the fact that the profit sharing is a direct part of our annual compensation plan. Whereas you make a few more dollars and hour, we negotiated better work rules. Not bad, just what was important to l-UAL.
This is akin to mgt saying, "hey guys, we are going to lower the cal pay banding to bring the ual guys up to where you are, ok? And then still give us a profit share, and you none.
J
This is akin to mgt saying, "hey guys, we are going to lower the cal pay banding to bring the ual guys up to where you are, ok? And then still give us a profit share, and you none.
J
12-31-2011 | 09:47 AM
#15
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Joined: Nov 2010
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I think the major issue is the violation of the status quo and Pierce's willingness to make unilateral side deals.
No one is against the L-CAL pilots getting $$, but UAL pilots should get a commensurate $$ advance as well to maintain the status quo. Smisek's offer to honor the clauses of L-UAL's tpa, except base protection, only shows that Mgt has no intention of furloughing or parking a sizable portion of the L-UAL fleet in 2012. Therefore what L-UAL pilots would receive in return for L-CAL profit sharing is worthless.
No one is against the L-CAL pilots getting $$, but UAL pilots should get a commensurate $$ advance as well to maintain the status quo. Smisek's offer to honor the clauses of L-UAL's tpa, except base protection, only shows that Mgt has no intention of furloughing or parking a sizable portion of the L-UAL fleet in 2012. Therefore what L-UAL pilots would receive in return for L-CAL profit sharing is worthless.
12-31-2011 | 09:50 AM
#16
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Joined: Nov 2010
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I think the major issue is the violation of the status quo and Pierce's willingness to make unilateral side deals.
No one is against the L-CAL pilots getting $$, but UAL pilots should get a commensurate $$ advance as well to maintain the status quo. Smisek's offer to honor the clauses of L-UAL's tpa, except base protection, only shows that Mgt has no intention of furloughing or parking a sizable portion of the L-UAL fleet in 2012. Therefore what L-UAL pilots would receive in return for L-CAL profit sharing is worthless.
No one is against the L-CAL pilots getting $$, but UAL pilots should get a commensurate $$ advance as well to maintain the status quo. Smisek's offer to honor the clauses of L-UAL's tpa, except base protection, only shows that Mgt has no intention of furloughing or parking a sizable portion of the L-UAL fleet in 2012. Therefore what L-UAL pilots would receive in return for L-CAL profit sharing is worthless.
12-31-2011 | 01:45 PM
#17
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Joined: Nov 2010
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From: 737 Cap
Just like we can't bid the Bus to stay in our bases because we don't fly those planes. I've not met one pilot who is chomping at the bit to get into DEN or ORD. BTW, what makes ORD really any better than EWR? DEN I could see. Are you really that naive to think that management wasn't going to terminate the base/domicile protections? Most anyone could see that coming when this thing was signed.
FWIW, I am very senior in my seat and will likely not be materially affected initially unless they close DEN 320. I will be absolutely enormously affected long-term as a result of this merger. I can accept that, but I can't accept a complete abrogation of eventual seniority in UAL's most senior large domicile, effectively displacing pilots that have given huge sacrifices to be based where they live (vs. making extra money instead of a livable lifestyle). Again, it is unbelievable to me that UCAL will take this tact. Guess we'll see.
Scott
Last edited by UAL T38 Phlyer; 01-01-2012 at 12:14 PM. Reason: TOS Language
12-31-2011 | 02:02 PM
#18
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Joined: Nov 2011
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From: EWR B737FO
I dunno, maybe the fact that we actually live in DEN and have for been based here for the last 20 years. Almost nobody commutes to DEN (less than 5%). The company will be involuntarily bumping from arguably the most senior and desirable UAL domicile and replacing legacy UAL DEN based pilots with CAL pilots. It may be years (a decade?) before the junior UAL pilots that LIVE IN DENVER are able to get back. UFB that UCAL would take this tact as it will make commuting HELL for all of us. In fact, I predict that it will be an absolute train wreck if they bump a hundred or more (hundred's?) of LUAL pilots out of DEN. None of us are going to move, the jets are full, and I will follow the commute policy to a "t". Good luck staffing the airline after you've crammed it up our collective ****. To think that we had a ** fleet of 737's in DEN and ORD just 3 years ago. What a crock *** this place is.
FWIW, I am very senior in my seat and will likely not be materially affected initially unless they close DEN 320. I will be absolutely enormously affected long-term as a result of this merger. I can accept that, but I can't accept a complete abrogation of eventual seniority in UAL's most senior large domicile, effectively displacing pilots that have given huge sacrifices to be based where they live (vs. making extra money instead of a livable lifestyle). Again, it is unbelievable to me that UCAL will take this tact. Guess we'll see.
Scott
FWIW, I am very senior in my seat and will likely not be materially affected initially unless they close DEN 320. I will be absolutely enormously affected long-term as a result of this merger. I can accept that, but I can't accept a complete abrogation of eventual seniority in UAL's most senior large domicile, effectively displacing pilots that have given huge sacrifices to be based where they live (vs. making extra money instead of a livable lifestyle). Again, it is unbelievable to me that UCAL will take this tact. Guess we'll see.
Scott
Last edited by UAL T38 Phlyer; 01-01-2012 at 12:14 PM. Reason: TOS Violation in Quote
12-31-2011 | 02:08 PM
#19
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Joined: Nov 2010
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From: 737 Cap
I can understand your concerns. FWIW, CAL displaced about 30 percent of the 737 pilots from EWR to IAH a few years back. Never got the flying back. Many of the folks moved to the Northeast just to commute to IAH. The rationale was to break up the radicals in EWR (although we we're told to help commuters). This domicile issue will affect everyone but what legal grounds do you have to prevent?
Also, it is a little bit different being displaced by pilots on your seniority list when flying gets realigned by the company you work for compared to being displaced by pilots not on your seniority list, doing your flying, in jets that you had in your fleet just a handful of years back that were parked to facilitate a merger.
12-31-2011 | 03:09 PM
#20
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From: EWR B737FO
Unclear... but that doesn't change/fix anything. This is such a short-sighted company... I have 27 years to go at this company, and they've lost me. I was an asset, but they lost me a long time ago. This only solidifies that position. Such a bunch of thieves and thugs, yet there are clear winners here. The actions of the CAL MEC are not helping the cause of our collective group IMHO. Then again, neither are the actions of the UAL MEC. What a cluster. Absolute train wreck if they do this. I hope "they" understand the consequences, but I suspect they don't.
Also, it is a little bit different being displaced by pilots on your seniority list when flying gets realigned by the company you work for compared to being displaced by pilots not on your seniority list, doing your flying, in jets that you had in your fleet just a handful of years back that were parked to facilitate a merger.
Also, it is a little bit different being displaced by pilots on your seniority list when flying gets realigned by the company you work for compared to being displaced by pilots not on your seniority list, doing your flying, in jets that you had in your fleet just a handful of years back that were parked to facilitate a merger.
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