Min 5 per day (M5D) question
11-14-2012, 03:41 PM
#11
Banned
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Position: 756 Left Side
Posts: 1,629
Originally Posted by jsled
This was covered in CrewsNews AND video. Averaged means 1 day trip = 5 hrs min pay. 2 = 10, 3 = 15 and 4 = 20. 5 hrs of pay per calander day. The 0400 you just quoted is as it reads. If scheduled to be back by 2400 on last day but your late or reassigned, then an EXTRA 5 hours is not paid unless arriving after 0400.
This is huge for West coast HI flying. Those guys fly 12 hour 3 days to HI resulting in 72 hr 12 day off lines. Those will now be 15 hour 3 days resulting in 90 hr lines with 18 hrs being soft time!
Sled
This is huge for West coast HI flying. Those guys fly 12 hour 3 days to HI resulting in 72 hr 12 day off lines. Those will now be 15 hour 3 days resulting in 90 hr lines with 18 hrs being soft time!
Sled
My post was first about the implementation. Thank you though for answering the "average" question. Just went to the ALPA Site and someone else asked it and got the same answer.
But the thought that the company may still schedule someone for 6 of those trips, since it would equal 72 hours and be something PBS spits out.. is still scary.
What happens when a pilot gets such a schedule but doesn't want it!
Yeah.. it's great to get 90hrs of pay for 72 hours of flying. But not if those 72 hours are also 18 days of work
Again, can anyone answer when the 5 hour pay per day thing starts?!
Motch
11-14-2012, 08:08 PM
#12
New Hire
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Aug 2011
Position: 737 FO
Posts: 9
Originally Posted by horrido27
They give you 5 of those trips. That's 15 days of work. 67.5 hours of credit. So they still need to give you some more flying.
Add a 2 day trip worth 10 hours.
So- 13 days off.. 77.5 hours of flying for 85 hours of pay.
Add a 2 day trip worth 10 hours.
So- 13 days off.. 77.5 hours of flying for 85 hours of pay.
What I've been reading in the bullet points says that pay is also credit (for the most part). However, upon reading the TA, this doesn't seem to be true with recurrent ground school. It says that it must be scheduled on a pilots day off. Is this the way y'all see it? Are recurrent sims and landing currency also on days off? So we will still be going below 12 days off for training?
11-14-2012, 08:43 PM
#13
Doing the reserve shuffle
Joined APC: Mar 2005
Position: Boeing 787 FO/T-6A Texan II IP
Posts: 54
"5-G-2 Schedules shall contain a minimum of five (5) hours pay value, averaged, for each day in a Trip."
This doesn't fix the problem of the 4 day trip with the 30 hour layover where you work your a$$ off the the other 3 days (flying 20 or more hours), and still don't get compensated for the day you're sitting around, away from home, not getting paid. The 5 hours of pay per calendar day should be a daily guarantee...not averaged.
I've been told by Southwest pilots that their average 3 day trips pay 19-23 hours and their 4 days pay in the 25-29 hour range...about 20% more than they actually block...
Rolo
This doesn't fix the problem of the 4 day trip with the 30 hour layover where you work your a$$ off the the other 3 days (flying 20 or more hours), and still don't get compensated for the day you're sitting around, away from home, not getting paid. The 5 hours of pay per calendar day should be a daily guarantee...not averaged.
I've been told by Southwest pilots that their average 3 day trips pay 19-23 hours and their 4 days pay in the 25-29 hour range...about 20% more than they actually block...
Rolo
11-14-2012, 09:08 PM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,866
Originally Posted by rolo12
"5-G-2 Schedules shall contain a minimum of five (5) hours pay value, averaged, for each day in a Trip." This doesn't fix the problem of the 4 day trip with the 30 hour layover where you work your a$$ off the the other 3 days (flying 20 or more hours), and still don't get compensated for the day you're sitting around, away from home, not getting paid.
11-14-2012, 10:05 PM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2005
Posts: 202
Originally Posted by APC225
It should definitely be calculated day by day.
11-15-2012, 03:02 AM
#16
Senior by choice
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 425
Originally Posted by dogpilot
We even get min day every day at my crappy regional. So I can do a four day with 7hrs, 3hrs, 3.5hrs, and 6hrs and I get paid 21hrs. you guys would only get 20hrs. That sucks
11-15-2012, 04:03 AM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 4,944
Here are Delta's regs. I still can't tell if United's will be better, but I want you to make an honest comparison.
We get a 5:15 average per flying duty period. That is a huge loss for us. A 3-day trip with only two duty periods (usually includes a red-eye back) could pay 10:30 before the rig below was introduced in our new contract. This applies to lineholders per trip. It applies to reserves per month (it's a useless rig to reserves). A duty period with deadhead only does not count in the average. A 4-day with 4 duty periods of flying is worth a min 21:00 to a lineholder. Again, reserves get screwed.
We do get a 4:30 calender day average now as long as your sign in is not after 2200 and your finish is not before 0200. There is a 2 hour buffer on each end. Now those 3 days with 2 duty periods pay 13:30 (still crappy, but not quite as crappy). This does apply to reserves and it does help reserves. The west coast pilots starting with a red-eye still get hosed.
We get 3.5 to 1 trip rig. It applies to everyone no matter what and it does help.
We also get 2 to 1 duty rig. It only helps during irregular ops or if you get in late and contractually stay on duty all night for pay purposes. When that happens the rig drops to 1.75 to 1 and pay sky rockets. It is very rare though.
I consider myself pretty knowledgeable to my contract so if anyone has any questions, just pm me.
We get a 5:15 average per flying duty period. That is a huge loss for us. A 3-day trip with only two duty periods (usually includes a red-eye back) could pay 10:30 before the rig below was introduced in our new contract. This applies to lineholders per trip. It applies to reserves per month (it's a useless rig to reserves). A duty period with deadhead only does not count in the average. A 4-day with 4 duty periods of flying is worth a min 21:00 to a lineholder. Again, reserves get screwed.
We do get a 4:30 calender day average now as long as your sign in is not after 2200 and your finish is not before 0200. There is a 2 hour buffer on each end. Now those 3 days with 2 duty periods pay 13:30 (still crappy, but not quite as crappy). This does apply to reserves and it does help reserves. The west coast pilots starting with a red-eye still get hosed.
We get 3.5 to 1 trip rig. It applies to everyone no matter what and it does help.
We also get 2 to 1 duty rig. It only helps during irregular ops or if you get in late and contractually stay on duty all night for pay purposes. When that happens the rig drops to 1.75 to 1 and pay sky rockets. It is very rare though.
I consider myself pretty knowledgeable to my contract so if anyone has any questions, just pm me.
11-15-2012, 06:50 AM
#19
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: A320 Cap
Posts: 2,282
Originally Posted by horrido27
As a Proud Owner of a 2 day last month that paid 2:55 and had a 29 hr sit in PIT, I totally agree that 5 hrs pay per day is a plus. I wanted a little more, but 5 was my min on this.
My only concerns is in the pairing that someone posted earlier.. and how PBS is going to build schedules.
As far as Reserve is concerned.. believe it or not, but I do bid reserve every now and then. Live local, like the break in my month and am able to do some mil stuff without killing myself when I get my usual 6 crossings, 12 days off a month.
I don't like the idea of Field Standby. Mind you, as a 756 guy flying mostly International (though, since the merger we [EWR 756] are doing more longer domestic and Hawaii stuff), I don't think (least I hope not!) that 756 reserves are gonna get a lot of Field Standby.
But here is my concern.
IF we do order a CS300.. or EMB 190/195 and start running it like a quasi Regional Operation, I fear alot of Field Standby for those guys.
I'm told that FS is something you guys have in your contract.. but not really used (?). At CAL, we don't have it and therefor I worry about it.
As far as the 0400 thing is concerned, I'll have to recheck my CBA. Though our's was 0200 but it might also be 0400. Hopefully a CAL guy can comment.
We got to keep talking about the Good, Bad and Ugly of this thing. Doesn't matter if we're CAL, UAL, Narrow body or Wide body, Senior or Junior..
If this thing passes, we are going to be living with it for the next 7 years. And when the next big downswing happens, what and where will the new management come looking to cut and take away.
This thing has got to be Leading Edge and Solid NOW.
Yeah, I'm a NO Voter~
Motch
PS> I'm glad to hear that you would be getting an extra 15 hours of pay if this was our JCBA right now.
But from my end, I would be getting an extra $800 a month and not sure yet how much extra's I'd be paying out.
Not to mention, I still haven't been able to figure out what my "signing bonus" is!
My only concerns is in the pairing that someone posted earlier.. and how PBS is going to build schedules.
As far as Reserve is concerned.. believe it or not, but I do bid reserve every now and then. Live local, like the break in my month and am able to do some mil stuff without killing myself when I get my usual 6 crossings, 12 days off a month.
I don't like the idea of Field Standby. Mind you, as a 756 guy flying mostly International (though, since the merger we [EWR 756] are doing more longer domestic and Hawaii stuff), I don't think (least I hope not!) that 756 reserves are gonna get a lot of Field Standby.
But here is my concern.
IF we do order a CS300.. or EMB 190/195 and start running it like a quasi Regional Operation, I fear alot of Field Standby for those guys.
I'm told that FS is something you guys have in your contract.. but not really used (?). At CAL, we don't have it and therefor I worry about it.
As far as the 0400 thing is concerned, I'll have to recheck my CBA. Though our's was 0200 but it might also be 0400. Hopefully a CAL guy can comment.
We got to keep talking about the Good, Bad and Ugly of this thing. Doesn't matter if we're CAL, UAL, Narrow body or Wide body, Senior or Junior..
If this thing passes, we are going to be living with it for the next 7 years. And when the next big downswing happens, what and where will the new management come looking to cut and take away.
This thing has got to be Leading Edge and Solid NOW.
Yeah, I'm a NO Voter~
Motch
PS> I'm glad to hear that you would be getting an extra 15 hours of pay if this was our JCBA right now.
But from my end, I would be getting an extra $800 a month and not sure yet how much extra's I'd be paying out.
Not to mention, I still haven't been able to figure out what my "signing bonus" is!
11-15-2012, 12:32 PM
#20
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: 737 CAPT
Posts: 1,888
Originally Posted by horrido27
I don't like the idea of Field Standby. Mind you, as a 756 guy flying mostly International (though, since the merger we [EWR 756] are doing more longer domestic and Hawaii stuff), I don't think (least I hope not!) that 756 reserves are gonna get a lot of Field Standby.
But here is my concern.
IF we do order a CS300.. or EMB 190/195 and start running it like a quasi Regional Operation, I fear alot of Field Standby for those guys.
I'm told that FS is something you guys have in your contract.. but not really used (?). At CAL, we don't have it and therefor I worry about it.
Section 25.11.O:
Should operations require, a Reserve Pilot may be used for “Airport Standby” duty.
1. The Duty Period as an Airport Standby is limited to five (5) hours. An
assigned Trip Pairing must have a scheduled departure within that period. If no scheduled departure is assigned within the five (5) hour period, the pilot must be released for at least the length of a Base Rest Period.
2. The five (5) hour Duty Period for a pilot on Airport Standby begins at Report Time.
Should operations require, a Reserve Pilot may be used for “Airport Standby” duty.
1. The Duty Period as an Airport Standby is limited to five (5) hours. An
assigned Trip Pairing must have a scheduled departure within that period. If no scheduled departure is assigned within the five (5) hour period, the pilot must be released for at least the length of a Base Rest Period.
2. The five (5) hour Duty Period for a pilot on Airport Standby begins at Report Time.
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