One reason to vote yes.
11-20-2012, 05:59 AM
#1
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One reason to vote yes.
To the CAL pilots that want to work together I hope you will forgive the following, but this is a post I made in another thread, and I feel strongly it is not being considered seriously enough by L-UAL voters on this forum so it deserved it's own thread. Anyways here it is:
The interests of UAL-ALPA and CAL-ALPA are at polar opposites and if this contract goes back to management I believe absolutely 100% that the CAL side will shoot down any future agreement because most of the reasons for voting no are completely opposite on the two properties so there is no way to "sweeten" the offer that will be acceptable and therefore we will end up with a USAir tragedy of epic proportions and ruin the careers of the entire L-UAL pilot group. Step one will be the retirement of the 757 fleet forcing massive layoffs at L-UAL and step two will be placing all new NB jet orders at L-CAL. L-UAL will become a much smaller widebody only company with no growth and no contract. We need to complete the SLI to align the pilot group interests and THEN fight for a better future. Is this contract "Good". No. Is this contract enough to make it another 5 years before I'm willing to go on strike? Yes.
I believe strongly the fight here is with CAL-ALPA right now and NOT management. They put in pay banding comparing a 767 to a 747 while separating a 757-200 from a 757-300, they put in LOA 25, and they (CAL-ALPA) have said publicly they can live with no contract indefinitely because life's pretty good in their eyes with lots of movement and shiny new planes on their side. I'm closing my eyes and pinching my nose and voting yes to the TA, but I'm gonna expect big things in 2017-2019. Nothing in life good comes fast and sadly the political reality of this bargaining process has seriously handicapped the L-UAL pilot group.
Joe Peck
IADFO
The interests of UAL-ALPA and CAL-ALPA are at polar opposites and if this contract goes back to management I believe absolutely 100% that the CAL side will shoot down any future agreement because most of the reasons for voting no are completely opposite on the two properties so there is no way to "sweeten" the offer that will be acceptable and therefore we will end up with a USAir tragedy of epic proportions and ruin the careers of the entire L-UAL pilot group. Step one will be the retirement of the 757 fleet forcing massive layoffs at L-UAL and step two will be placing all new NB jet orders at L-CAL. L-UAL will become a much smaller widebody only company with no growth and no contract. We need to complete the SLI to align the pilot group interests and THEN fight for a better future. Is this contract "Good". No. Is this contract enough to make it another 5 years before I'm willing to go on strike? Yes.
I believe strongly the fight here is with CAL-ALPA right now and NOT management. They put in pay banding comparing a 767 to a 747 while separating a 757-200 from a 757-300, they put in LOA 25, and they (CAL-ALPA) have said publicly they can live with no contract indefinitely because life's pretty good in their eyes with lots of movement and shiny new planes on their side. I'm closing my eyes and pinching my nose and voting yes to the TA, but I'm gonna expect big things in 2017-2019. Nothing in life good comes fast and sadly the political reality of this bargaining process has seriously handicapped the L-UAL pilot group.
Joe Peck
IADFO
11-20-2012, 06:46 AM
#3
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Posts: 840
Originally Posted by Sunvox
To the CAL pilots that want to work together I hope you will forgive the following, but this is a post I made in another thread, and I feel strongly it is not being considered seriously enough by L-UAL voters on this forum so it deserved it's own thread. Anyways here it is:
The interests of UAL-ALPA and CAL-ALPA are at polar opposites and if this contract goes back to management I believe absolutely 100% that the CAL side will shoot down any future agreement because most of the reasons for voting no are completely opposite on the two properties so there is no way to "sweeten" the offer that will be acceptable and therefore we will end up with a USAir tragedy of epic proportions and ruin the careers of the entire L-UAL pilot group. Step one will be the retirement of the 757 fleet forcing massive layoffs at L-UAL and step two will be placing all new NB jet orders at L-CAL. L-UAL will become a much smaller widebody only company with no growth and no contract. We need to complete the SLI to align the pilot group interests and THEN fight for a better future. Is this contract "Good". No. Is this contract enough to make it another 5 years before I'm willing to go on strike? Yes.
I believe strongly the fight here is with CAL-ALPA right now and NOT management. They put in pay banding comparing a 767 to a 747 while separating a 757-200 from a 757-300, they put in LOA 25, and they (CAL-ALPA) have said publicly they can live with no contract indefinitely because life's pretty good in their eyes with lots of movement and shiny new planes on their side. I'm closing my eyes and pinching my nose and voting yes to the TA, but I'm gonna expect big things in 2017-2019. Nothing in life good comes fast and sadly the political reality of this bargaining process has seriously handicapped the L-UAL pilot group.
Joe Peck
IADFO
The interests of UAL-ALPA and CAL-ALPA are at polar opposites and if this contract goes back to management I believe absolutely 100% that the CAL side will shoot down any future agreement because most of the reasons for voting no are completely opposite on the two properties so there is no way to "sweeten" the offer that will be acceptable and therefore we will end up with a USAir tragedy of epic proportions and ruin the careers of the entire L-UAL pilot group. Step one will be the retirement of the 757 fleet forcing massive layoffs at L-UAL and step two will be placing all new NB jet orders at L-CAL. L-UAL will become a much smaller widebody only company with no growth and no contract. We need to complete the SLI to align the pilot group interests and THEN fight for a better future. Is this contract "Good". No. Is this contract enough to make it another 5 years before I'm willing to go on strike? Yes.
I believe strongly the fight here is with CAL-ALPA right now and NOT management. They put in pay banding comparing a 767 to a 747 while separating a 757-200 from a 757-300, they put in LOA 25, and they (CAL-ALPA) have said publicly they can live with no contract indefinitely because life's pretty good in their eyes with lots of movement and shiny new planes on their side. I'm closing my eyes and pinching my nose and voting yes to the TA, but I'm gonna expect big things in 2017-2019. Nothing in life good comes fast and sadly the political reality of this bargaining process has seriously handicapped the L-UAL pilot group.
Joe Peck
IADFO
11-20-2012, 07:13 AM
#4
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Joined APC: May 2009
Position: The GF of FUPM
Posts: 3,073
Sunvox and other Yes voters,
Please consider the other argument. I lifted it from the other forum. It is not my writing.
------------------------
That fear is totally misplaced, and the product of a disinformation campaign that has been launched by the UAL MEC officers and their proxies in order to justify this sub-standard JCBA TA. I have previously posted this on the UAL side of this forum:
The pilots hold all of the leverage. It is immaterial as to whether one believes that under the NMB we can secure release. If this contract is not ratified, it will cost the company millions of dollars. The company has already stated that they must begin recalls to the United side in the early half of 2013. This is driven not only by retirements, but by the staffing demands dictated by the adoption of FAR Part 117 that the company must be able to comply with by the end of 2013. Each recall could create as many as 3 training cycles, which at $50,000 a cycle could with a mere 200 recalls cost the company over $30 million dollars--without even accounting for the lost productivity for 2-3 months of the individual pilot who will not be flying on the CAL side, paid moves, PS tickets, etc. In addition, the company's plan is to retire 2 B757s a month throughout 2013 on the LUAL side. Beginning in August of 2013 it will start taking deliveries of 2 B737-900s a month on the LUAL side. If this contract is not ratified, TK is going to have to go through the process of establishing an entire B737NG training program from scratch. Including hiring PIs, SCs, building the syllabus and coursework, etc. This will cost the company millions of dollars in yet another duplicate training program.
Recently various MEC and LEC members have been floating a highly disingenuous fear campaign focussed on a straw man argument that this merger is going to become "US Air", or worse, "Eastern Airlines." The problems with this theory are manifold. They ignore the basic fact on the ground that the company's fleet plan going forward has already been presented, and the company has no intention of a massive drawdown in LUAL flying. While three of the provisions of the TPA are able to be terminated, it ignores the fact that the TPA can and likely will be extended, just as it has a previous time. Especially since CAL still has no profit sharing going forward, and no grievance to trade for $40 million dollars in 2013. (Speaking of which, that grievance filed by the UAL MEC regarding negotiations outside of the tripartite TPA are still ongoing, and a source of another $40 million dollars in leverage for this pilot group.) Humorously, the "rationalizations" being advanced for why an "Eastern Airlines" is taking place are the exact rationalizations that fully illustrate why this company cannot perform as a US Air or an Eastern Airlines. The mixing of flying that has already taken place between the LUAL and LCAL side has already fully committed the company to integration, they have become inextricable. That is the one of the primary causes of the disastrous summer which just took place. Unlike US Air, where East and West are confined to their own hubs and on occasion touch through on various spokes, the company has already moved massive amounts of flying allocations, and has created a quagmire where only by going to a single system can they regain control of the scheduling during any form of irregular operations or busy (summer/holiday) period. Hence the negative PRASM displayed by UCH in comparison to even a bankrupt AMR. This is a further source of hundreds of millions of dollars in lost revenue for the company that the company requires a JCBA from their pilots in order to recover. So, the fact that one sees all the CAL 737s in LAX, SFO, and DEN is the same proof that is evidenced by the enormous amount of *****ing in the CAL 767 categories of IAH and EWR that UAL 767s are "stealing all the flying."
But, let us ignore all of this tangible evidence. Let us instead postulate that Smisek has hidden in his desk drawer "Operation Hari Kari" that he will unleash on the United pilot group which will institute a draw down of flying to 2003 CBA block hours. This will require a concurrent drawdown in UAX block hours, all of which will precipitate millions of dollars in lost revenue. Let us even get to a Domesday Device scenario where LUAL pilots are furloughed in the process, which, as evidenced by the staffing needs demanded by retirements and FAR 117 are preposterous because it would cost the company millions of dollars to institute a furlough which could not last the minimum two years that is the breakeven point for even thinking of such a thing. In such case, the unexpired provision of the TPA that was somehow not extended would mandate that the UAL furloughees immediately be given jobs on the CAL side that would have to swell tremendously, in seniority order so that they are already holding lines and flying at the same rate as when they left UAL, while also being given a lump sum furlough pay of $30,000, continuing to hold LUAL recall rights to trigger millions in retraining pay down the road, and still getting a vote on the JCBA. This is the Doomsday scenario, and it still costs the company millions upon millions of dollars to do this, while unable to cover the summer flying in 2013.
You know what? This pilot group is like a big bear, with claws, with fangs--big fukcing teeth, man. With big fukcing teeth on you. And the company is just like this little bunny, just kind of cowering in the corner. And you got these claws, and you're staring at these claws, man, and you're thinking "How am I supposed to kill this bunny?" You're looking at your claws and you're looking at your fangs and you're thinking to yourself: "I don't know what to do. I don't know how to kill the bunny. With this, I don't know how to kill the bunnies."
Please consider the other argument. I lifted it from the other forum. It is not my writing.
------------------------
That fear is totally misplaced, and the product of a disinformation campaign that has been launched by the UAL MEC officers and their proxies in order to justify this sub-standard JCBA TA. I have previously posted this on the UAL side of this forum:
The pilots hold all of the leverage. It is immaterial as to whether one believes that under the NMB we can secure release. If this contract is not ratified, it will cost the company millions of dollars. The company has already stated that they must begin recalls to the United side in the early half of 2013. This is driven not only by retirements, but by the staffing demands dictated by the adoption of FAR Part 117 that the company must be able to comply with by the end of 2013. Each recall could create as many as 3 training cycles, which at $50,000 a cycle could with a mere 200 recalls cost the company over $30 million dollars--without even accounting for the lost productivity for 2-3 months of the individual pilot who will not be flying on the CAL side, paid moves, PS tickets, etc. In addition, the company's plan is to retire 2 B757s a month throughout 2013 on the LUAL side. Beginning in August of 2013 it will start taking deliveries of 2 B737-900s a month on the LUAL side. If this contract is not ratified, TK is going to have to go through the process of establishing an entire B737NG training program from scratch. Including hiring PIs, SCs, building the syllabus and coursework, etc. This will cost the company millions of dollars in yet another duplicate training program.
Recently various MEC and LEC members have been floating a highly disingenuous fear campaign focussed on a straw man argument that this merger is going to become "US Air", or worse, "Eastern Airlines." The problems with this theory are manifold. They ignore the basic fact on the ground that the company's fleet plan going forward has already been presented, and the company has no intention of a massive drawdown in LUAL flying. While three of the provisions of the TPA are able to be terminated, it ignores the fact that the TPA can and likely will be extended, just as it has a previous time. Especially since CAL still has no profit sharing going forward, and no grievance to trade for $40 million dollars in 2013. (Speaking of which, that grievance filed by the UAL MEC regarding negotiations outside of the tripartite TPA are still ongoing, and a source of another $40 million dollars in leverage for this pilot group.) Humorously, the "rationalizations" being advanced for why an "Eastern Airlines" is taking place are the exact rationalizations that fully illustrate why this company cannot perform as a US Air or an Eastern Airlines. The mixing of flying that has already taken place between the LUAL and LCAL side has already fully committed the company to integration, they have become inextricable. That is the one of the primary causes of the disastrous summer which just took place. Unlike US Air, where East and West are confined to their own hubs and on occasion touch through on various spokes, the company has already moved massive amounts of flying allocations, and has created a quagmire where only by going to a single system can they regain control of the scheduling during any form of irregular operations or busy (summer/holiday) period. Hence the negative PRASM displayed by UCH in comparison to even a bankrupt AMR. This is a further source of hundreds of millions of dollars in lost revenue for the company that the company requires a JCBA from their pilots in order to recover. So, the fact that one sees all the CAL 737s in LAX, SFO, and DEN is the same proof that is evidenced by the enormous amount of *****ing in the CAL 767 categories of IAH and EWR that UAL 767s are "stealing all the flying."
But, let us ignore all of this tangible evidence. Let us instead postulate that Smisek has hidden in his desk drawer "Operation Hari Kari" that he will unleash on the United pilot group which will institute a draw down of flying to 2003 CBA block hours. This will require a concurrent drawdown in UAX block hours, all of which will precipitate millions of dollars in lost revenue. Let us even get to a Domesday Device scenario where LUAL pilots are furloughed in the process, which, as evidenced by the staffing needs demanded by retirements and FAR 117 are preposterous because it would cost the company millions of dollars to institute a furlough which could not last the minimum two years that is the breakeven point for even thinking of such a thing. In such case, the unexpired provision of the TPA that was somehow not extended would mandate that the UAL furloughees immediately be given jobs on the CAL side that would have to swell tremendously, in seniority order so that they are already holding lines and flying at the same rate as when they left UAL, while also being given a lump sum furlough pay of $30,000, continuing to hold LUAL recall rights to trigger millions in retraining pay down the road, and still getting a vote on the JCBA. This is the Doomsday scenario, and it still costs the company millions upon millions of dollars to do this, while unable to cover the summer flying in 2013.
You know what? This pilot group is like a big bear, with claws, with fangs--big fukcing teeth, man. With big fukcing teeth on you. And the company is just like this little bunny, just kind of cowering in the corner. And you got these claws, and you're staring at these claws, man, and you're thinking "How am I supposed to kill this bunny?" You're looking at your claws and you're looking at your fangs and you're thinking to yourself: "I don't know what to do. I don't know how to kill the bunny. With this, I don't know how to kill the bunnies."
11-20-2012, 07:25 AM
#5
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Joined APC: Sep 2010
Position: EWR 777 Captain
Posts: 1,715
Originally Posted by oldmako
the company's plan is to retire 2 B757s a month throughout 2013 on the LUAL side. Beginning in August of 2013 it will start taking deliveries of 2 B737-900s a month on the LUAL side. If this contract is not ratified, TK is going to have to go through the process of establishing an entire B737NG training program from scratch.
If this is true and someone can find a link to an outside source that verifies this as true I will change my vote to NO immediately. I will try to get verification through ALPA as well.
11-20-2012, 07:47 AM
#6
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Joined APC: May 2009
Position: The GF of FUPM
Posts: 3,073
Originally Posted by jdt30
I understand your point of view, but I
don't think a majority of CAL pilots want to screw you guys over..
don't think a majority of CAL pilots want to screw you guys over..
I'm not saying those are your words, but they accurately reflect some of the sentiment displayed on both forums the last few days. Capice?
ps. Some UAL guys are spineless and it has been maddening to fly with them for the last few years. I suspect that's true on the black and gold side as well. You know, those 150 percenters and plane sleepers.
Last edited by oldmako; 11-20-2012 at 08:16 AM.
11-20-2012, 07:53 AM
#7
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Joined APC: May 2009
Position: The GF of FUPM
Posts: 3,073
Originally Posted by Sunvox
If this is true and someone can find a link to an outside source that verifies this as true I will change my vote to NO immediately. I will try to get verification through ALPA as well.
We've been hearing this for quite some time. I'm surprised that you're surprised. Of course those ratty old worthless 757's just have to go!
And along with them, their higher pay rate and those expensive upgrades and training slots...ie jobs. If I can find something substantive, of course I will post it. Do you frequent the other forum? Buried within the vitriol, there are facts and some levelheaded opinions which may make you question your decision.
Good hunting.
Last edited by oldmako; 11-20-2012 at 08:14 AM.
11-20-2012, 08:03 AM
#8
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Joined APC: Sep 2010
Position: EWR 777 Captain
Posts: 1,715
Originally Posted by oldmako
Vox,
We've been hearing this for quite some time. I'm surprised that you're surprised. Of course those ratty old worthless 757's just have to go! And along with them, their higher pay rate and those expensive upgrades and training slots...ie jobs. If I can find something substantive, of course I will post it.
Do you frequent the other forum? Buried within the vitriol there are facts and some levelheaded opinions which may make you question your decision.
Good hunting.
We've been hearing this for quite some time. I'm surprised that you're surprised. Of course those ratty old worthless 757's just have to go!
And along with them, their higher pay rate and those expensive upgrades and training slots...ie jobs. If I can find something substantive, of course I will post it. Do you frequent the other forum? Buried within the vitriol there are facts and some levelheaded opinions which may make you question your decision.
Good hunting.
Sadly, I'm not familiar with the other forum. If you could shoot me a PM with a link that would be awesome. Thanks for the great info!
Joe
11-20-2012, 08:30 AM
#10
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Joined APC: Aug 2012
Posts: 138
Originally Posted by Sunvox
Sadly, I'm not familiar with the other forum. If you could shoot me a PM with a link that would be awesome. Thanks for the great info!
Joe
Joe
Also try United Pilot Forum
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