When will you ever have more leverage,VOTE NO
11-23-2012 | 07:24 PM
#11
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With "No windfalls" being part of any ISL, do you expect your 15 years to bump you from bottom reserve 756 FO (at LUAL) to 756 Captain (at LCAL?) Can you name any other ISL where this kind of movement has happened? What do you expect ISL outcome will be for you?
You got it. LCAL pilots have been working without a contract for 4 years, LUAL for 2, I'm an LCAL pilot so let's take LCAL Retro Pay.
Had LCAL pilots gotten a new contract and a raise back to pre-concessionionary rates when concessionary Contract/POS '02 became amendable on December 31, 2008, they would have made tens of thousands of dollars more over the last 4 years. RetroPay2009.com Instead we are settling for pennies on the dollar owed us, and the company is banking the savings.
Not only is this stealing money out of my pocket, but when this contract becomes amendable on 31 December 2017 there is ZERO motivation for the company to negotiate in good faith, since there is no penalty for dragging it out for years. This TA sets a terrible precedent for on-time negotiations.
Given that LUAL has been working for 2 years under an expired contract and LCAL 4, let's spilit the difference and say the next contract will take 3 years to negotiate.
You got it. LCAL pilots have been working without a contract for 4 years, LUAL for 2, I'm an LCAL pilot so let's take LCAL Retro Pay.
Had LCAL pilots gotten a new contract and a raise back to pre-concessionionary rates when concessionary Contract/POS '02 became amendable on December 31, 2008, they would have made tens of thousands of dollars more over the last 4 years. RetroPay2009.com Instead we are settling for pennies on the dollar owed us, and the company is banking the savings.
Not only is this stealing money out of my pocket, but when this contract becomes amendable on 31 December 2017 there is ZERO motivation for the company to negotiate in good faith, since there is no penalty for dragging it out for years. This TA sets a terrible precedent for on-time negotiations.
Given that LUAL has been working for 2 years under an expired contract and LCAL 4, let's spilit the difference and say the next contract will take 3 years to negotiate.
When you look at this TA, ask yourself:
Am I willing to work under it until 2020, with no raise after 2017?
Am I willing to work under it until 2020, with no raise after 2017?
11-23-2012 | 07:54 PM
#12
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From: 737 Captain
LCAL dude, of course I don't expect to bump from bottom F/O reserve after 15 yrs to 756 capt. None of us on our side expect that. That would be a HUGE windfall and has no historical support. Unfortunately, IMHO many CAL guys are worried that, post ISL, their career progression will come to a grinding halt and that is precisely why they feel that there is no hurry to get to the ISL process. What do I expect the ISL outcome will be for me you asked? I have said from the beginning of this merger that, if it is done fairly, no one on either side will be very happy about it. Bottom line, I will respect the arbitration panel's ruling.
11-23-2012 | 07:56 PM
#13
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From: IAH 737 CA
LCAL dude, of course I don't expect to bump from bottom F/O reserve after 15 yrs to 756 capt. None of us in my seniority range expect that. That would be a HUGE windfall and has no historical support. Unfortunately, IMHO many CAL guys are worried that, post ISL, their career progression will come to a grinding halt and that is precisely why they feel that there is no hurry to get to the ISL process. What do I expect the ISL outcome will be for me you ask? I have said from the beginning of this merger that, if it is done fairly, no one on either side will be very happy about it. Bottom line, I will respect the arbitration panel's ruling.
Most do want the ISL done, if for no other reason than to get out from under smisedicks thumb. But we also want a contract we have been waiting for 8 years for to be done and done right.
11-23-2012 | 08:01 PM
#14
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From: 737 Captain
11-24-2012 | 06:52 AM
#16
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This TA is the result of being part of a highly divided whipsawed union and I personally don't think we'll go the right direction towards our goals of a acceptable contract one day by becoming more divided. The price of working under a 2 headed snake / union is way higher than working under this TA for five years.
11-24-2012 | 06:59 AM
#17
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This TA is the result of being part of a highly divided whipsawed union and I personally don't think we'll go the right direction towards our goals of a acceptable contract one day by becoming more divided. The price of working under a 2 headed snake / union is way higher than working under this TA for five years.
11-24-2012 | 09:12 AM
#18
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From: IAH 737 CA
This TA is the result of being part of a highly divided whipsawed union and I personally don't think we'll go the right direction towards our goals of a acceptable contract one day by becoming more divided. The price of working under a 2 headed snake / union is way higher than working under this TA for five years.
I think you are selling the timeframe a little short here. 5 years will be closer to 10 when all is said and done if this contract passes.
11-24-2012 | 09:49 AM
#19
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From: A Nobody
Boy the hyperbole here!
Let's see???
"substandard" - What is the standard and did you pick and choose what the standard should be?
"At what price?"
Cost? According to the faqs this TA is an overall get. So I have to assume your cost here is one of two things, "This TA does not improve my pay and benefits enough (because it does overall improve both)" and "a TA approved now will cost me advancement in this coming year."
And for EWR737FO, 10 years??? Where do you come up with this stuff.
How long is this TA if ratified and from what date do you calculate the new amendable date? Do you really expect an additional 5-6 years of negotiations beyond this date?
Let's see???
"substandard" - What is the standard and did you pick and choose what the standard should be?
"At what price?"
Cost? According to the faqs this TA is an overall get. So I have to assume your cost here is one of two things, "This TA does not improve my pay and benefits enough (because it does overall improve both)" and "a TA approved now will cost me advancement in this coming year."
And for EWR737FO, 10 years??? Where do you come up with this stuff.
How long is this TA if ratified and from what date do you calculate the new amendable date? Do you really expect an additional 5-6 years of negotiations beyond this date?
11-24-2012 | 10:42 AM
#20
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From: 756 Left Side
Interesting view. I'm usually with Motch on the overall no because I think we can send back just a couple of items to get reworked. But, we have to be on the same team. Either officially or unofficially. If it passes and an isl gets done, we'll be stronger. It will be under a substandard contract though. Both are definitely something to give thought to before voting. Either way, we have to stay together.
Many of us Voting NO will most likely never support ALPA again. Be it National or Local. Therefore, the "Unity" won't actually exist and without that, there will be no Strength.
There were 7 Reps who held the line. But 19 who didn't. If the majority of the pilots are not willing to stand up and fight, than we are truly lost.
This TA will become the norm, and it will also be what we work under for the next 7 or more years. Because.. we will have shown management that there is no punishment nor incentive to negotiate the next contract on time, or even within a few years.
We will have shown management that you can delay for a few years, and then give a substandard deal on the table and the Pilots will take it.
What troubles me the most of these discussions is this-
Didn't everyone have certain minimums that they needed to Vote YES. At the same time, weren't there certain NO criteria that everyone had?
Motch
