I thought they were ordered in 2010, thanks.

 

You're right but they were ordered before MAD which was also 2010 and not 2009 like the poster referenced no orders.

 

You sort of contradict yourself here IMO. By bringing up the financial performance of UAL vs CAL in 2000-2010, you point out that UAL had a TERRIBLE time from 2001-2007. Then you acknowledge that UAL and CAL were in a dead heat financially in 2008-2009 (UAL outperformed CAL in 2010). But then you say the airlines were headed in different directions at the time of the merger. That logic seems to say that UAL had bottomed out in the middle of the decade and was on a decidedly UPWARD trgaectory, while CAL avoided the big curve but was relatively flat in comparison. From 2008-2010 saw dramatic upward trending of UAL's performance with a very bright looking future indeed. The financials back that up

 

Not sure your resurgence timeframe is correct either, according to this article.

UNITED, THEY FALL (INTO DEBT)

By JOSH KOSMAN

Last Updated: 3:51 PM, June 30, 2009
United Airlines is having its own version of the trip from hell.
The airline, reeling from a decline in customers and running short on cash, is paying a steep 17 percent interest on $175 million in debt it issued, leading analysts to bet the company is just a few steps from the grave.
Indeed, that interest rate represents a full 6 percentage points above where rival airlines have paid in recent debt raisings, and is more than double what it paid nine years ago when it sold $186.4 million in debt at a yield of slightly more than 8 percent, according to Bloomberg data.
United Airlines parent UAL was planning to sell the debt at a 12.75 percent interest, but was forced to sweeten things due to both a lack of investor interest and management desperation, said analyst Roger King of CreditSights.
Others have noted that the steep interest rate reflects a lack of desirable assets to use as collateral.
UAL is considered the laggard among the big airlines, even as the airlines' overall passenger demand is off 10 percent compared with last summer. Also, the company has just $2.5 billion of cash on hand, compared with Delta, which has $7 billion.
To be sure, it's a difficult time for all airlines. However, UAL has some unique challenges.
When it was in bankruptcy from 2002 through 2006, it focused on attracting premium customers -- a move that now leaves it vulnerable given there's less business travel and more consumers are favoring price over luxury when it comes to travel.
Making matters worse, UAL may have near-term liquidity issues, and could begin to get squeezed by credit-card companies that fret they'd have to refund customers who bought tickets out of their own pockets if UAL collapses. King said UAL is now in talks with American Express about reaching a new arrangement to address this threat.
Last week, the airline announced it would lay off another 600 flight attendants in the fall. King said the company has basically already made about all the cuts it can.

 

Were those aircraft financed in any way ? I remember seeing something about how it was a paper order to dress things up for any merger.

I can go order a new Mercedes tomorrow, but at some point I gotta pony up the $$$

 

Oh my
And yet you weren't smart enough to stay out of this industry?

Seriously though, I'll put yer Dartmouth up against a certain CEO's
Harvard whatever. We all see how much thats helped.

 

Not surprisingly they were ordered with very advantageous pre-delivery terms with deposit payments spread out over the five years prior to first delivery.

FWIW, here's what CAL had to say about financing its "firm" orders in 2009:

 

It probably means that UAL brings "x" number of captain slots to the table and CAL brings "y"....regardless of who they may be. And that the numbers are just that. A pilot who chose to delay an upgrade to keep QOL will not be punished.

 

Agreed! Good for discussion over an adult beverage, nothing more.

 

Exactly. The charade of pilots who are very junior getting Captain seats of out seniority because the work rules and flying is so horrible on reserve or being junior doesn't mean every CAL pilot who passed up a Captain bid should get a seniority advantage.

UAL brings far more Captain positions as well as far more widebody flying. This means that there will be more United pilots by far that occupy the top half of the seniority list and more CAL pilots in the bottom half.

Its not the fault of United pilots that pilots at CAL chose to pass up Captain, while at United, more pilots didn't pass up the position. Its also a result of only have a couple pilot bases, and larger bases are more likely to have position bidding variability. Smaller bases are more likely to have position bidding efficiency. UAL having multiple bases around the US means less commuters and more pilots willing to be on reserve. Plus the much better reserve rules make it easier to upgrade as soon as possible instead of what happened at CAL.

I think the arbitrator is going to see right through that one.

It would be ironic if the lousy work rules at CAL (which is what caused lineholding FOs to not bid Captain) ended up benefitting them.

It would also be ironic if CAL pilots having super bases in undesirable cities ended up benefitting them, as they lateral and bid out to decent places to live.

Stick to the merger policy....

Longevity (when was the pilot hired)
Status and Category (how many of each type of aircraft were brought)
Career Expectations (what equipment pilots would end up on)

The rest is folly and speculation.