jsled

Thanks ST. I needed a GOOD laugh

Sled

GoCats67

The fence no longer applies after 5 years or if their are insufficient bidders from the legacy airline (United in the case of the 47) So, if through some massive shift in bidding patterns, the 747 F/O position is going to go unfilled on a bid (prior to the 25th 787 showing up) the position would then be open to anyone on the seniority list. So, an off the street new hire could theoretically get a bid, but it would first be open to everyone on the list from Legacy CAL, so I would say that is extraordinarily unlikely!!

jetlink

Fences are for 2010 pre merger list of L-CAL and L-UAL pilots, so technically pilots hired after 2010 merger are considered new United inc. pilots that do not fit this category. So, yes you can bid it if you can hold it.
I believe this will be a huge subject to interpretation by many, but it spells out pre merger for both. :-)
Here's the detail info from CAL-UAL ISL Opinion and Award 9.3.13:

B. Conditions and Restrictions
5. For a period of five (5) years beginning with the Bid Period in which the ISL is first implemented, or until the carrier takes delivery of its twenty-fifth (25th) B787 aircraft, whichever occurs sooner, no premerger Continental pilot may be awarded a Captain or First Officer vacancy on a B747 or A350 aircraft or displaced to one and no premerger United pilot may be awarded a Captain or First Officer vacancy on a B787 aircraft or displaced to one.

cadetdrivr

For LCAL pilots new to this system, pay attention to the power of unadvertised vacancies, particularly as it involves covering attrition as senior pilots retire and the resulting importance of "standing" bids.

Example: UAL Posts a small vacancy bid with only 40 777 CA positions (~10% of next year's attrition)

Is this a bid with 40 vacancies? Nope.

In an imaginary "stovepipe" scenario this will result in 40 CAs bidding off the 767 which results in 40 CAs bidding off the 737 which results in 40 777 FOs bidding 737 CA and so on....

A small bid for large equipment can result in several hundred subsequent bid awards and training events in bases, equipment, and seats that were never part of the advertised bid.

Thus, one should always have a "standing bid" for the BES one really wants and never have anything in the computer that is not 100% desired because you just might get it even if you didn't think the bid would affect you.

SpecialTracking

Good gawd that brings a tear to my eye thinking of the go go 90's.

GoCats67

Section 6 also talks about what would happen if their were insufficent bidders from the legacy group protected by the fence.

"6. Should there be insufficient bidders from one premerger pilot group for
any position in the allocated group of positions under paragraph 5 above, the filling of the position will be governed by the ISL. A pilot thereby awarded a position will, for purposes of processing future displacements under the collective bargaining agreement, be considered as junior to all pilots from the premerger pilot group entitled to the position. Notwithstanding the awarding of positions pursuant to this insufficient bidders provision, the restrictions set out in paragraph 5 above shall continue to apply during the terms specified in paragraph 5 above."

So, if there is an unfilled bid that is fenced off, that bid then becomes open to anyone on the ISL (regardless of heritage). So pretty unlikely an off the street guy or gal would see one of those before the 25th 787 arrives.

krudawg

Ok, I have it on good authority that ALPA National is holding back 5% of the vacancies until they resolve the current law suits regarding retro pay (signing bonus for the TK types)

teedog

Here is one for Ual guy furloughed now on cal property now recalled. This should mean we are not fenced on Any aircraft! We have both Ual and Cal time :-)

oldmako

When I was hired we all got to spend a week in Chicago for kool aid and indoctrination. At that time the head guru of scheduling told us that for EACH 747-400 Captain bid, the company planned on 16 additional moves (all training events) as hundreds of pilots below this Captain had the opportunity to change seats. Bear in mind that at the time we had two different types of 747s along with the DC10, 777, 767, 737NG (300-500 glass CAT 3), 737-200, 727, and Airbus.

IOW, senior rope start F/Os could now have a shot at the right seat of the 400, triple seven guys could now bid the whale, 67 guys the 777, etc etc etc all the way down the line to the 727 Flight Engineers.

Why? Because each seat represented a pay scale HIGHER than the one vacated. Everybody got a raise. Some guys LIKE to chase money and are eager to position themselves to make more of it. Sound familiar? More money caused more bids and more pilot jobs.

Now? A two engine 400,000 pound 67 pays the same as a 4 engine 800,000 pound 747. Decision 83 was tossed in the dumpster. WHY did we give this up? After all, its highly concessionary and pilot negative. I wonder? Anyone? Bueller? Baron?

What a steaming load of effluent. Pay banding, the gift that keeps on taking.

Probe

James;
I am not sure what the best system is. When I was younger I liked the international flying. Now my dream job is one day trips.

I think I would rather get paid by seat and longevity than aircraft weight. Let the young guys fly all night to party in RIO if they want. The last thing we need is a cockpit full of 64 year olds doing an 8 day asia trip.

I am not sure which system is best. I don't see the argument that it is pilot negative, other than fewer instructors and fewer pilots in training chasing an 8 dollars an hour raise.