Scope Choke in Action
02-20-2014 | 12:56 PM
#11
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From: WB Bunkie
The E-175 isn't an RJ, but scope allows a carrier with RJs to fly it for mainline. Some passengers prefer them to a 737, no middle seat and many of the same amenities. Assuming that most passengers understand the intricacies of the mainline/regional relationship is probably false.
Ticket price, past experience with an airline, ticket price, reliability and ticket prices are the factors I believe... Although two of them may not be actual factors to the average consumer
Ticket price, past experience with an airline, ticket price, reliability and ticket prices are the factors I believe... Although two of them may not be actual factors to the average consumer
02-20-2014 | 02:26 PM
#12
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From: UAL retired
I'm getting lazy in my old age otherwise I'd look it up myself. The question as to whether or not Scope Choke is working centers on the number of seats and/or the Max Gross Weight of the planes being used. So who can answer with links as proof as to what the seating arrangements and Max Gross Weight is for the new EMB-175s being pressed into service. If they have more than 70 seats and/or weigh more than the defined 76 Max Gross Weight defined weight then they are counting towards the Scope Choke Clause. If they have 70 seats or less and/or weigh less than the defined weight then Scope Choke is not working.
It's not about routes . . . it's about reducing the number of planes in service. If the company flies planes with more than 70 seats they incur major "Scope Choke".
It's not about routes . . . it's about reducing the number of planes in service. If the company flies planes with more than 70 seats they incur major "Scope Choke".
02-20-2014 | 03:19 PM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 3,076
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From: The GF of FUPM
The big EMB seats are wider than either a bus or crap7. The aisle is wider. The distance between your outboard shoulder and the window is wider. And of course, there is no center seat.
From the PAX standpoint, its a great plane. We must fly the next gen. Must.
From the PAX standpoint, its a great plane. We must fly the next gen. Must.
02-22-2014 | 09:17 PM
#15
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 709
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From: 320 Captain
I'm getting lazy in my old age otherwise I'd look it up myself. The question as to whether or not Scope Choke is working centers on the number of seats and/or the Max Gross Weight of the planes being used. So who can answer with links as proof as to what the seating arrangements and Max Gross Weight is for the new EMB-175s being pressed into service. If they have more than 70 seats and/or weigh more than the defined 76 Max Gross Weight defined weight then they are counting towards the Scope Choke Clause. If they have 70 seats or less and/or weigh less than the defined weight then Scope Choke is not working.
It's not about routes . . . it's about reducing the number of planes in service. If the company flies planes with more than 70 seats they incur major "Scope Choke".
It's not about routes . . . it's about reducing the number of planes in service. If the company flies planes with more than 70 seats they incur major "Scope Choke".
Yes and no...
In order to catch up to Delta's advantage in having 76 seaters flying already, the first batch of 76 seaters for UAL do nothing to choke. They are allowed a max of 130 76-seaters right off the bat. (Inclusive of the q400 which numbers 28) and then up to 153 after January 1. 2016. If the company wants to increase past that number of 76-seaters, they have to order a new small narrow body for mainline.
1-C-1-a-(2)-(c) Up to a total of 255 76-Seat Aircraft plus 70-Seat Aircraft (“76/70-Seat Aircraft”), of which up to 130 may be 76-Seat Aircraft, and then, on or after January 1, 2016, up to 153 76-Seat Aircraft.
The 255 is a hard cap, if the company wants to increase the 76-seaters they will have to reduce the amount of 70-seaters. Unless they add a new small narrow body to mainline (Defined as the CS100, Emb190/195) then:
1-C-1-g Number of 76-Seat Aircraft
If the Company adds New Small Narrowbody aircraft to the Company Fleet, then on or after January 1, 2016, the number of permitted 76-Seat Aircraft may increase from 153 (as permitted under Section 1-C-1-a-(2)-(c)) up to a total of 223 76-Seat Aircraft, and the number of permitted 76/70-Seat Aircraft may increase from 255 (as permitted under Section 1-C-1-a-(2)-(c)) up to a total of 325 76/70-Seat Aircraft, except that once the number of 76/70-Seat Aircraft exceeds 255, then the number of 70-Seat Aircraft may not be more than 102. 76-Seat Aircraft (above 153 such Aircraft) may be added on a one 76-Seat Aircraft for each one and one quarter New Small Narrowbody Aircraft (1:1.25) ratio (rounded to the closest integer). In addition, in the event more than 153 76-Seat Aircraft are in United Express Flying, the Company shall remove from United Express Flying a number of 50-Seat Aircraft determined as follows
If the Company adds New Small Narrowbody aircraft to the Company Fleet, then on or after January 1, 2016, the number of permitted 76-Seat Aircraft may increase from 153 (as permitted under Section 1-C-1-a-(2)-(c)) up to a total of 223 76-Seat Aircraft, and the number of permitted 76/70-Seat Aircraft may increase from 255 (as permitted under Section 1-C-1-a-(2)-(c)) up to a total of 325 76/70-Seat Aircraft, except that once the number of 76/70-Seat Aircraft exceeds 255, then the number of 70-Seat Aircraft may not be more than 102. 76-Seat Aircraft (above 153 such Aircraft) may be added on a one 76-Seat Aircraft for each one and one quarter New Small Narrowbody Aircraft (1:1.25) ratio (rounded to the closest integer). In addition, in the event more than 153 76-Seat Aircraft are in United Express Flying, the Company shall remove from United Express Flying a number of 50-Seat Aircraft determined as follows
Number of 76-Seat Aircraft Operated In United Express Flying Max. % of UAXBH to SBH
1. Zero to 153 9. 120%
2. 154-163 10. 111%
3. 164-173 11. 104%
4. 174-183 12. 97%
5. 184-193 13. 90%
6. 194-203 14. 83%
7. 204-213 15. 76%
8. 214-223 16. 68%
1. Zero to 153 9. 120%
2. 154-163 10. 111%
3. 164-173 11. 104%
4. 174-183 12. 97%
5. 184-193 13. 90%
6. 194-203 14. 83%
7. 204-213 15. 76%
8. 214-223 16. 68%
G
02-23-2014 | 07:14 AM
#16
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Joined: Mar 2012
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From: 777
I would say that for the foreseeable future, the economics of the smaller RJ's will dictate a faster retirement than the contract--coupled with no one wanting to work for starvation wages.
Fewer pilots, fewer planes must lead to larger capacity planes--that is unless we take back more RJ flying than planned, and I don't see that soon either.
Fewer pilots, fewer planes must lead to larger capacity planes--that is unless we take back more RJ flying than planned, and I don't see that soon either.
02-23-2014 | 07:19 AM
#17
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Joined: Apr 2013
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I would say that for the foreseeable future, the economics of the smaller RJ's will dictate a faster retirement than the contract--coupled with no one wanting to work for starvation wages.
Fewer pilots, fewer planes must lead to larger capacity planes--that is unless we take back more RJ flying than planned, and I don't see that soon either.
Fewer pilots, fewer planes must lead to larger capacity planes--that is unless we take back more RJ flying than planned, and I don't see that soon either.
09-18-2014 | 12:57 PM
#19
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Joined: Sep 2010
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From: UAL retired
G, Remeber this . . .
and rember this quote from Ken the ALPA Scope-SME which I posted in 12/2012 that you didn't think was likely anytime before 2017.
Now here is a quote from Skywest's quarterly report:
same goes for Republic.
The 70/76 fleet will end 2014 like this:
Q400 28
EMB-700 38
CRJ-700 115
EMB-175 32
Tot 213
Outstanding orders for EMB-175 to be used by UAX not yet delivered but for delivery in 2015 and 2016:
Republic 50
Skywest 40
So we have at least 303 70/76 seaters which is going to force retirement of CRJ-700 or Q400 or both to keep the fleet limited to 255 in the meantime more than 100 CRJs are being retired in the next 2 years so . . . drum roll please . . .
By the end of 2016 the UAX fleet will see a minimum net reduction of 50 hulls and that is just on the retirements that have already been announced. Any additional retirements of 50 seaters lowers the numbers.
Plus, UAL has announced several routes returning to mainline from UAX.
Plus, from the "other forum" it appears certain that we are keeping our 767 fleet for the near future as well as additional 757s. The 757s will run Hawaii and free up 73s to take on more UAX routes.
So . . . in summary.
UAX fleet reducing from 550ish airframes to less than 450 by end of 2016.
UAX fleet capped at 255 airframes while 50 seaters all but disappear by 2020.
UAL taking back mainline flying from UAX already being announced.
I'm not sure how folks want to measure their lives whether thy are Glass Half Empty folks or Glass Half Full folks, but to me this is a huge win. It is taking time, but without a question UAX is shrinking with or without a new narrow body order.
Oh and Coach67 . . . I'm not feeling any apology is forthcoming soon. . .
and rember this quote from Ken the ALPA Scope-SME which I posted in 12/2012 that you didn't think was likely anytime before 2017.
Besides that, regardless of how the Company allocates its 255 hulls within our new restrictions the 50-seat RJ fleet is dying. With that and no other action by the Company UAX is eventually headed to a new maximum RJ fleet of 255. Contrast that with today’s UAX RJ fleet of over 500. If the Company Mainline fleet does not grow at all over the next 6 years the UAX fleet will still shrink by almost 40% just through 50-seat RJ retirements.
Now here is a quote from Skywest's quarterly report:
In the second half of 2014, SkyWest expects 56 of its unprofitable 50-seat aircraft contracts will naturally expire and the aircraft will be returned to lessors. SkyWest also expects an additional 101 unprofitable 50-seat aircraft contracts will naturally expire and be removed from service by December 31, 2015.
The 70/76 fleet will end 2014 like this:
Q400 28
EMB-700 38
CRJ-700 115
EMB-175 32
Tot 213
Outstanding orders for EMB-175 to be used by UAX not yet delivered but for delivery in 2015 and 2016:
Republic 50
Skywest 40
So we have at least 303 70/76 seaters which is going to force retirement of CRJ-700 or Q400 or both to keep the fleet limited to 255 in the meantime more than 100 CRJs are being retired in the next 2 years so . . . drum roll please . . .
By the end of 2016 the UAX fleet will see a minimum net reduction of 50 hulls and that is just on the retirements that have already been announced. Any additional retirements of 50 seaters lowers the numbers.
Plus, UAL has announced several routes returning to mainline from UAX.
Plus, from the "other forum" it appears certain that we are keeping our 767 fleet for the near future as well as additional 757s. The 757s will run Hawaii and free up 73s to take on more UAX routes.
So . . . in summary.
UAX fleet reducing from 550ish airframes to less than 450 by end of 2016.
UAX fleet capped at 255 airframes while 50 seaters all but disappear by 2020.
UAL taking back mainline flying from UAX already being announced.
I'm not sure how folks want to measure their lives whether thy are Glass Half Empty folks or Glass Half Full folks, but to me this is a huge win. It is taking time, but without a question UAX is shrinking with or without a new narrow body order.
Oh and Coach67 . . . I'm not feeling any apology is forthcoming soon. . .
Don't want your dinner ... but I will be looking forward to the apology on the forum. Don't lecture me on the importance of Scope. It's the reason I voted NO!
By the way ... I read that from KC ... it is the same sales job that the MEC did on the JCBA. He and the NC negotiated it. Did you notice it was only the positives and none of the negatives of the scope? Surely a balanced unbiased analysis that you purport to continually aspire to achieve would point out the shortcomings as well ... no?
By the way ... I read that from KC ... it is the same sales job that the MEC did on the JCBA. He and the NC negotiated it. Did you notice it was only the positives and none of the negatives of the scope? Surely a balanced unbiased analysis that you purport to continually aspire to achieve would point out the shortcomings as well ... no?
09-18-2014 | 01:57 PM
#20
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Joined: Sep 2010
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Joe,
Besides attempting to forgive scabs, you certainly are willing to buy into the spin. Simple fact is RJ economics are pushing the lawn darts towards the dumpster. The Q's are being rid of, because they are less reliable then your member of Congress. Btw they are being replaced with far more capable 76 seat jets (winner!
) Those are the facts, not perspective. These were not the pilot group's problems, thus gloating about the pathetic 'scope choke' after we unzipped our fly on the large RJ makes you look foolish.
Besides attempting to forgive scabs, you certainly are willing to buy into the spin. Simple fact is RJ economics are pushing the lawn darts towards the dumpster. The Q's are being rid of, because they are less reliable then your member of Congress. Btw they are being replaced with far more capable 76 seat jets (winner!
) Those are the facts, not perspective. These were not the pilot group's problems, thus gloating about the pathetic 'scope choke' after we unzipped our fly on the large RJ makes you look foolish.
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