Go Back  Airline Pilot Central Forums > Airline Pilot Forums > Major > United
Help stamp out Scope Relief Rumors. >

Help stamp out Scope Relief Rumors.


Notices

Help stamp out Scope Relief Rumors.

Old 12-17-2014, 09:48 AM
  #1  
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
 
Sunvox's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Sep 2010
Position: EWR 777 Captain
Posts: 1,715
Default Help stamp out Scope Relief Rumors.

So for those of you that do not have access to or prefer not to go either of the UAL forums I thought I would start a thread here to spread a rumor being discussed over there. What you do with that rumor is up to you. I decided to email my LEC, the MEC, and the big guy himself, Heppner.

Anyways, the long and the short of it is that a rumor came out saying the company had approached Heppner asking for Scope Relief. The guesses were many, but the one that sounded most plausible to me was the company asking for more 76 seaters in return for 737s or A319s instead of the SNB which is in the contract.

Now I don't know how y'all feel, but if there is any truth to this rumor then my answer is "Aww hell no!!!!!"

We buy 'em and we fly 'em! Otherwise forget it.

So, I emailed several folks and got silence or answers like yeah we had a briefing from the Scope Committee, but that doesn't mean anything. Many other folks on the other forums got similar responses to MEC members they confronted. The consensus amongst people posting on the thread was: Where there's smoke there's probably fire.

Conclusion: There is a chance that El Heffe is talking to the company about Scope Relief. If you think we need to hold the line and shout "NO!" then I would urge my fellow forumites to email Messr Heppner directly. That would be Jay dot Heppner at ALPA dot org

Like I said, it's all a rumor at this point, but I remember all too well how back in 2003 we woke up one day to find the a now infamous Master Chairman and gone and signed a letter giving away 70s without a word to the troops about what was coming or having asked anybody what they thought. Rather than take that chance again, I say let your reps know how you feel about Scope. Today. It might not make a lick of difference, but then again it can't hurt.
Sunvox is offline  
Old 12-17-2014, 10:03 AM
  #2  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Hilltopper89's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Oct 2012
Position: 737
Posts: 1,061
Default

Thanks. I saw the thread over there and when it was 180+ posts in 3 days I passed. Agreed. We should never give away flying to the regionals. It hurts all involved.
Hilltopper89 is offline  
Old 12-17-2014, 10:43 AM
  #3  
Gets Weekends Off
 
awax's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,808
Default

Whatever DAL is asking for is what UAL will ask for, that's about as creative Willis tower is these days.

Research how well DAL complies with the Joint Venture and regional block hour thresholds and it's easy to guess where we're headed. The only question is it at the negotiating table or grievance hearing.
awax is offline  
Old 12-17-2014, 01:28 PM
  #4  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Shrek's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,856
Default

Sunvox- the scope giveaway you are referring to is the E170 side letter and NOT 70 seat scope - that was given away already.

Apart from that - I am 100% behind the sentiment of the post itself.
Shrek is offline  
Old 12-17-2014, 01:39 PM
  #5  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: 737 fo
Posts: 908
Default

Unless they can bring my Dad back from the dead, they have nothing that they can offer that I would trade for scope!
sleeves is offline  
Old 12-17-2014, 07:39 PM
  #6  
Don't say Guppy
 
Joined APC: Dec 2010
Position: Guppy driver
Posts: 1,926
Default

I hate to be the bearer of bad news. We have been giving away scope now for what: almost 20 years? We are going to draw the line in the sand now? Hold our breath till Jeffey sees us turn blue?
Probe is offline  
Old 12-17-2014, 09:57 PM
  #7  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Feb 2010
Position: A320/A319/B737 Sys Acft Maint Controller
Posts: 303
Default

Originally Posted by Sunvox
So for those of you that do not have access to or prefer not to go either of the UAL forums I thought I would start a thread here to spread a rumor being discussed over there. What you do with that rumor is up to you. I decided to email my LEC, the MEC, and the big guy himself, Heppner.

Anyways, the long and the short of it is that a rumor came out saying the company had approached Heppner asking for Scope Relief. The guesses were many, but the one that sounded most plausible to me was the company asking for more 76 seaters in return for 737s or A319s instead of the SNB which is in the contract.

Now I don't know how y'all feel, but if there is any truth to this rumor then my answer is "Aww hell no!!!!!"

We buy 'em and we fly 'em! Otherwise forget it.

So, I emailed several folks and got silence or answers like yeah we had a briefing from the Scope Committee, but that doesn't mean anything. Many other folks on the other forums got similar responses to MEC members they confronted. The consensus amongst people posting on the thread was: Where there's smoke there's probably fire.

Conclusion: There is a chance that El Heffe is talking to the company about Scope Relief. If you think we need to hold the line and shout "NO!" then I would urge my fellow forumites to email Messr Heppner directly. That would be Jay dot Heppner at ALPA dot org

Like I said, it's all a rumor at this point, but I remember all too well how back in 2003 we woke up one day to find the a now infamous Master Chairman and gone and signed a letter giving away 70s without a word to the troops about what was coming or having asked anybody what they thought. Rather than take that chance again, I say let your reps know how you feel about Scope. Today. It might not make a lick of difference, but then again it can't hurt.
************************************************** **********
Now the question is? if the SNB is not announced and the Co leased another 30 737-522's or 524's plus 30 A319-132's would that NOT be the same thing as the SNB??
I know scope is important to you but I heard management is now in a PANIC about getting more airplanes to allow the 76 seat E175's on board. So my question IS? Is there a DIFFERENCE or does the Co HAVE to buy the E190/195? Or? Is this another deal breaker?
I ask because there's no resource to field another Fleet type so it's either more A319's or more 737's. and they're all over the place trying to bring them on Board, I heard China and Russia.
So they seem pretty Desperate. 30 more A319's is going to increase My workload and I could care LESS and the 737's as well.
But I'm not sure any E190/E195 is going to do much for the operation.
And? I question Why the Pilots would specifically demand that fleet?
Especially since it gives us no operational advantage. I've heard guys say they'd rather deal with a petulant "FiFI" (A319) than the E190/195.
Though I in fact have never put a wrench on one of them so I can't say with TRUE knowledge. (As a point of Clarification)
I'm not trying to start a fight though I would like a considered opinion OK??
And By the way, Do you even have a Pay scale FOR a 737-500??
strfyr51 is offline  
Old 12-18-2014, 03:36 AM
  #8  
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
 
Sunvox's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Sep 2010
Position: EWR 777 Captain
Posts: 1,715
Default

The term "New Small Narrowbody Aircraft" is carefully defined. I do not believe 737s or Airbuses qualify.

From a pilot standpoint there are two issues. First, IF and that's a big if, but IF the company is desperate for more 76 seaters then this is the perfect chance to push for a "We Buy 'em and We Fly 'em". Obviously the company would have to outsource training and maintenance initially, but if the regionals can get it done then so can United. It's a question of money of which they have plenty at the moment.

Secondly, IF this rumor is true and the company is genuinely worried about not having enough regional 76 seat feed then that means Scope Choke is actually working, but if we turn around and negotiate that away then we have lost the battle and maybe even the war.

1-L-25 “New Small Narrowbody Aircraft” means a CS100, E190 or E195 aircraft, provided that such aircraft is neither in the Company Fleet as of the date of signing of this Agreement nor acquired through merger or acquisition of another air carrier.
1-C-1-g Number of 76-Seat Aircraft
If the Company adds New Small Narrowbody aircraft to the Company Fleet, then on or after January 1, 2016, the number of permitted 76-Seat Aircraft may increase from 153 (as permitted under Section 1-C-1-a-(2)-(c)) up to a total of 223 76-Seat Aircraft, and the number of permitted 76/70-Seat Aircraft may increase from 255 (as permitted under Section 1-C-1-a-(2)-(c)) up to a total of 325 76/70-Seat Aircraft, except that once the number of 76/70-Seat Aircraft exceeds 255, then the number of 70-Seat Aircraft may not be more than 102. 76-Seat Aircraft (above 153 such Aircraft) may be added on a one 76- Seat Aircraft for each one and one quarter New Small Narrowbody Aircraft (1:1.25) ratio (rounded to the closest integer).
Sunvox is offline  
Old 12-18-2014, 04:05 AM
  #9  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Hilltopper89's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Oct 2012
Position: 737
Posts: 1,061
Default

Originally Posted by Sunvox
The term "New Small Narrowbody Aircraft" is carefully defined. I do not believe 737s or Airbuses qualify.

From a pilot standpoint there are two issues. First, IF and that's a big if, but IF the company is desperate for more 76 seaters then this is the perfect chance to push for a "We Buy 'em and We Fly 'em". Obviously the company would have to outsource training and maintenance initially, but if the regionals can get it done then so can United. It's a question of money of which they have plenty at the moment.

Secondly, IF this rumor is true and the company is genuinely worried about not having enough regional 76 seat feed then that means Scope Choke is actually working, but if we turn around and negotiate that away then we have lost the battle and maybe even the war.
Agreed on all counts. Curious who we would get to fly them? Last I checked the UPA the pay rate for just about any FO is greater than the CA seat on the small airplanes.
Hilltopper89 is offline  
Old 12-18-2014, 05:25 AM
  #10  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Saabs's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jul 2011
Position: Airbus button pusher
Posts: 2,448
Default

Originally Posted by Hilltopper89
Agreed on all counts. Curious who we would get to fly them? Last I checked the UPA the pay rate for just about any FO is greater than the CA seat on the small airplanes.
Thats the dilemma we are having at airways. We have bids where 190 captain is going unfilled. Well, the pay sucks and the schedules aren't anything to write home about with 5 leg shuttle days and only 4 or 5 consistent cities that they layover.
Saabs is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
CAL EWR
United
44
11-26-2012 01:29 PM
CAL EWR
United
67
11-25-2012 03:46 PM
QuagmireGiggity
Major
73
09-10-2011 08:29 PM
B1900YX
Major
50
10-14-2010 06:30 AM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Your Privacy Choices