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Old 12-17-2014, 10:48 AM   #1  
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Default Help stamp out Scope Relief Rumors.

So for those of you that do not have access to or prefer not to go either of the UAL forums I thought I would start a thread here to spread a rumor being discussed over there. What you do with that rumor is up to you. I decided to email my LEC, the MEC, and the big guy himself, Heppner.

Anyways, the long and the short of it is that a rumor came out saying the company had approached Heppner asking for Scope Relief. The guesses were many, but the one that sounded most plausible to me was the company asking for more 76 seaters in return for 737s or A319s instead of the SNB which is in the contract.

Now I don't know how y'all feel, but if there is any truth to this rumor then my answer is "Aww hell no!!!!!"

We buy 'em and we fly 'em! Otherwise forget it.

So, I emailed several folks and got silence or answers like yeah we had a briefing from the Scope Committee, but that doesn't mean anything. Many other folks on the other forums got similar responses to MEC members they confronted. The consensus amongst people posting on the thread was: Where there's smoke there's probably fire.

Conclusion: There is a chance that El Heffe is talking to the company about Scope Relief. If you think we need to hold the line and shout "NO!" then I would urge my fellow forumites to email Messr Heppner directly. That would be Jay dot Heppner at ALPA dot org

Like I said, it's all a rumor at this point, but I remember all too well how back in 2003 we woke up one day to find the a now infamous Master Chairman and gone and signed a letter giving away 70s without a word to the troops about what was coming or having asked anybody what they thought. Rather than take that chance again, I say let your reps know how you feel about Scope. Today. It might not make a lick of difference, but then again it can't hurt.
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Old 12-17-2014, 11:03 AM   #2  
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Thanks. I saw the thread over there and when it was 180+ posts in 3 days I passed. Agreed. We should never give away flying to the regionals. It hurts all involved.
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Old 12-17-2014, 11:43 AM   #3  
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Whatever DAL is asking for is what UAL will ask for, that's about as creative Willis tower is these days.

Research how well DAL complies with the Joint Venture and regional block hour thresholds and it's easy to guess where we're headed. The only question is it at the negotiating table or grievance hearing.
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Old 12-17-2014, 02:28 PM   #4  
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Sunvox- the scope giveaway you are referring to is the E170 side letter and NOT 70 seat scope - that was given away already.

Apart from that - I am 100% behind the sentiment of the post itself.
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Old 12-17-2014, 02:39 PM   #5  
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Unless they can bring my Dad back from the dead, they have nothing that they can offer that I would trade for scope!
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Old 12-17-2014, 08:39 PM   #6  
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I hate to be the bearer of bad news. We have been giving away scope now for what: almost 20 years? We are going to draw the line in the sand now? Hold our breath till Jeffey sees us turn blue?
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Old 12-17-2014, 10:57 PM   #7  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunvox View Post
So for those of you that do not have access to or prefer not to go either of the UAL forums I thought I would start a thread here to spread a rumor being discussed over there. What you do with that rumor is up to you. I decided to email my LEC, the MEC, and the big guy himself, Heppner.

Anyways, the long and the short of it is that a rumor came out saying the company had approached Heppner asking for Scope Relief. The guesses were many, but the one that sounded most plausible to me was the company asking for more 76 seaters in return for 737s or A319s instead of the SNB which is in the contract.

Now I don't know how y'all feel, but if there is any truth to this rumor then my answer is "Aww hell no!!!!!"

We buy 'em and we fly 'em! Otherwise forget it.

So, I emailed several folks and got silence or answers like yeah we had a briefing from the Scope Committee, but that doesn't mean anything. Many other folks on the other forums got similar responses to MEC members they confronted. The consensus amongst people posting on the thread was: Where there's smoke there's probably fire.

Conclusion: There is a chance that El Heffe is talking to the company about Scope Relief. If you think we need to hold the line and shout "NO!" then I would urge my fellow forumites to email Messr Heppner directly. That would be Jay dot Heppner at ALPA dot org

Like I said, it's all a rumor at this point, but I remember all too well how back in 2003 we woke up one day to find the a now infamous Master Chairman and gone and signed a letter giving away 70s without a word to the troops about what was coming or having asked anybody what they thought. Rather than take that chance again, I say let your reps know how you feel about Scope. Today. It might not make a lick of difference, but then again it can't hurt.
************************************************** **********
Now the question is? if the SNB is not announced and the Co leased another 30 737-522's or 524's plus 30 A319-132's would that NOT be the same thing as the SNB??
I know scope is important to you but I heard management is now in a PANIC about getting more airplanes to allow the 76 seat E175's on board. So my question IS? Is there a DIFFERENCE or does the Co HAVE to buy the E190/195? Or? Is this another deal breaker?
I ask because there's no resource to field another Fleet type so it's either more A319's or more 737's. and they're all over the place trying to bring them on Board, I heard China and Russia.
So they seem pretty Desperate. 30 more A319's is going to increase My workload and I could care LESS and the 737's as well.
But I'm not sure any E190/E195 is going to do much for the operation.
And? I question Why the Pilots would specifically demand that fleet?
Especially since it gives us no operational advantage. I've heard guys say they'd rather deal with a petulant "FiFI" (A319) than the E190/195.
Though I in fact have never put a wrench on one of them so I can't say with TRUE knowledge. (As a point of Clarification)
I'm not trying to start a fight though I would like a considered opinion OK??
And By the way, Do you even have a Pay scale FOR a 737-500??
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Old 12-18-2014, 04:36 AM   #8  
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The term "New Small Narrowbody Aircraft" is carefully defined. I do not believe 737s or Airbuses qualify.

From a pilot standpoint there are two issues. First, IF and that's a big if, but IF the company is desperate for more 76 seaters then this is the perfect chance to push for a "We Buy 'em and We Fly 'em". Obviously the company would have to outsource training and maintenance initially, but if the regionals can get it done then so can United. It's a question of money of which they have plenty at the moment.

Secondly, IF this rumor is true and the company is genuinely worried about not having enough regional 76 seat feed then that means Scope Choke is actually working, but if we turn around and negotiate that away then we have lost the battle and maybe even the war.

Quote:
1-L-25 “New Small Narrowbody Aircraft” means a CS100, E190 or E195 aircraft, provided that such aircraft is neither in the Company Fleet as of the date of signing of this Agreement nor acquired through merger or acquisition of another air carrier.
Quote:
1-C-1-g Number of 76-Seat Aircraft
If the Company adds New Small Narrowbody aircraft to the Company Fleet, then on or after January 1, 2016, the number of permitted 76-Seat Aircraft may increase from 153 (as permitted under Section 1-C-1-a-(2)-(c)) up to a total of 223 76-Seat Aircraft, and the number of permitted 76/70-Seat Aircraft may increase from 255 (as permitted under Section 1-C-1-a-(2)-(c)) up to a total of 325 76/70-Seat Aircraft, except that once the number of 76/70-Seat Aircraft exceeds 255, then the number of 70-Seat Aircraft may not be more than 102. 76-Seat Aircraft (above 153 such Aircraft) may be added on a one 76- Seat Aircraft for each one and one quarter New Small Narrowbody Aircraft (1:1.25) ratio (rounded to the closest integer).
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Old 12-18-2014, 05:05 AM   #9  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunvox View Post
The term "New Small Narrowbody Aircraft" is carefully defined. I do not believe 737s or Airbuses qualify.

From a pilot standpoint there are two issues. First, IF and that's a big if, but IF the company is desperate for more 76 seaters then this is the perfect chance to push for a "We Buy 'em and We Fly 'em". Obviously the company would have to outsource training and maintenance initially, but if the regionals can get it done then so can United. It's a question of money of which they have plenty at the moment.

Secondly, IF this rumor is true and the company is genuinely worried about not having enough regional 76 seat feed then that means Scope Choke is actually working, but if we turn around and negotiate that away then we have lost the battle and maybe even the war.
Agreed on all counts. Curious who we would get to fly them? Last I checked the UPA the pay rate for just about any FO is greater than the CA seat on the small airplanes.
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Old 12-18-2014, 06:25 AM   #10  
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Quote:
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Agreed on all counts. Curious who we would get to fly them? Last I checked the UPA the pay rate for just about any FO is greater than the CA seat on the small airplanes.
Thats the dilemma we are having at airways. We have bids where 190 captain is going unfilled. Well, the pay sucks and the schedules aren't anything to write home about with 5 leg shuttle days and only 4 or 5 consistent cities that they layover.
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