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05-25-2015, 03:51 PM
#191
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2013
Position: Gets weekends off
Posts: 1,168
Originally Posted by baseball
I only hope that ALPA displays the same long term resolve and loyalty to the pilots they sacrificed via seniority
05-25-2015, 03:59 PM
#192
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: A320 Cap
Posts: 2,282
Originally Posted by baseball
I think ALPA knew this was going to happen. In the one hand they want to make sure ALPA survives the merger due to all the decertification threats going on by both DAL and UAL pilots who were angry and had vehemently threatened to remove ALPA from the property if they didn't get a windfall.
So, when ALPA gave super seniority to unemployed former pilots who still held seniority/recall rights they sort of made this problem happen and they knew it would happen. ALPA chose to deal with the fall out later and just put the lists together. You (or anyone) can say it was an independent arbitrator, but there was everyone at CAL knew the pilots would be thrown under the bus just to save ALPA.
Now that ALPA has survived, ALPA will need to reassess how it can screw those pilots some more (or not). Curious to see what happens next. I do believe in about 2 to 3 years it will all wash out, but those that are "on the outside looking in" should remember, if it wasn't for the merger they would still be unemployed and there would have been about 1400 people still looking for a job. So, if those that are trying to break the glass to get inside want to truly break the glass, so be it. But, ALPA knows that they had to stiff arm the problem for about 5 years for things to wash and then hopefully by then ALPA National could get the pilots motivated, unified, and rallied around a few common enemies (foreign cabotage, UAL management).
I am just calling it like I see it. I think ALPA knew this was going to happen, but it chose to deal with the fall out later and just get it done for the sake of the survival of the association. The buerocracy is ALPA is very strong, and their unity within the tent is a testament to the resolve of the association. Contrast that with the FA unions and see how far apart they still are.
No employees had a vote in this merger. This was a UAL/CAL management and BOD decision. All employee groups were affected and none had a choice in the outcome. While I fully respect anyone's opinion on their perception of the current situation, I think their position is formed and colored by their "legacy" company and their current position on the list and their quality of life, and their perceived justice/or injustice.
This merger was far from perfect, but it is what it is. I only hope that ALPA displays the same long term resolve and loyalty to the pilots they sacrificed via seniority in order to make this happen that they did to those that were currently unemployed when the merger took place and needed a leg up to get a paycheck.
ALPA will stiff arm it from both sides (CAL and L UAL) because ALPA knows in about 2 to 3 years, due to retirements this all blows over. By then, those looking through the window will have a new window and a new seat to go with it.
So, when ALPA gave super seniority to unemployed former pilots who still held seniority/recall rights they sort of made this problem happen and they knew it would happen. ALPA chose to deal with the fall out later and just put the lists together. You (or anyone) can say it was an independent arbitrator, but there was everyone at CAL knew the pilots would be thrown under the bus just to save ALPA.
Now that ALPA has survived, ALPA will need to reassess how it can screw those pilots some more (or not). Curious to see what happens next. I do believe in about 2 to 3 years it will all wash out, but those that are "on the outside looking in" should remember, if it wasn't for the merger they would still be unemployed and there would have been about 1400 people still looking for a job. So, if those that are trying to break the glass to get inside want to truly break the glass, so be it. But, ALPA knows that they had to stiff arm the problem for about 5 years for things to wash and then hopefully by then ALPA National could get the pilots motivated, unified, and rallied around a few common enemies (foreign cabotage, UAL management).
I am just calling it like I see it. I think ALPA knew this was going to happen, but it chose to deal with the fall out later and just get it done for the sake of the survival of the association. The buerocracy is ALPA is very strong, and their unity within the tent is a testament to the resolve of the association. Contrast that with the FA unions and see how far apart they still are.
No employees had a vote in this merger. This was a UAL/CAL management and BOD decision. All employee groups were affected and none had a choice in the outcome. While I fully respect anyone's opinion on their perception of the current situation, I think their position is formed and colored by their "legacy" company and their current position on the list and their quality of life, and their perceived justice/or injustice.
This merger was far from perfect, but it is what it is. I only hope that ALPA displays the same long term resolve and loyalty to the pilots they sacrificed via seniority in order to make this happen that they did to those that were currently unemployed when the merger took place and needed a leg up to get a paycheck.
ALPA will stiff arm it from both sides (CAL and L UAL) because ALPA knows in about 2 to 3 years, due to retirements this all blows over. By then, those looking through the window will have a new window and a new seat to go with it.
For the record, most LUAL pilots (particularly the 1998 pilots who weren't furloughed but lost 8 YESRS) think they were screwed in the SLI, just as most LCAL pilots do. That's the nature of the merger beast. It really would behoove you, and all of us, to just accept it and move on.
05-25-2015, 04:12 PM
#193
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2013
Posts: 919
Originally Posted by baseball
I think ALPA knew this was going to happen. In the one hand they want to make sure ALPA survives the merger due to all the decertification threats going on by both DAL and UAL pilots who were angry and had vehemently threatened to remove ALPA from the property if they didn't get a windfall.
So, when ALPA gave super seniority to unemployed former pilots who still held seniority/recall rights they sort of made this problem happen and they knew it would happen. ALPA chose to deal with the fall out later and just put the lists together. You (or anyone) can say it was an independent arbitrator, but there was everyone at CAL knew the pilots would be thrown under the bus just to save ALPA.
Now that ALPA has survived, ALPA will need to reassess how it can screw those pilots some more (or not). Curious to see what happens next. I do believe in about 2 to 3 years it will all wash out, but those that are "on the outside looking in" should remember, if it wasn't for the merger they would still be unemployed and there would have been about 1400 people still looking for a job. So, if those that are trying to break the glass to get inside want to truly break the glass, so be it. But, ALPA knows that they had to stiff arm the problem for about 5 years for things to wash and then hopefully by then ALPA National could get the pilots motivated, unified, and rallied around a few common enemies (foreign cabotage, UAL management).
I am just calling it like I see it. I think ALPA knew this was going to happen, but it chose to deal with the fall out later and just get it done for the sake of the survival of the association. The buerocracy is ALPA is very strong, and their unity within the tent is a testament to the resolve of the association. Contrast that with the FA unions and see how far apart they still are.
No employees had a vote in this merger. This was a UAL/CAL management and BOD decision. All employee groups were affected and none had a choice in the outcome. While I fully respect anyone's opinion on their perception of the current situation, I think their position is formed and colored by their "legacy" company and their current position on the list and their quality of life, and their perceived justice/or injustice.
This merger was far from perfect, but it is what it is. I only hope that ALPA displays the same long term resolve and loyalty to the pilots they sacrificed via seniority in order to make this happen that they did to those that were currently unemployed when the merger took place and needed a leg up to get a paycheck.
ALPA will stiff arm it from both sides (CAL and L UAL) because ALPA knows in about 2 to 3 years, due to retirements this all blows over. By then, those looking through the window will have a new window and a new seat to go with it.
So, when ALPA gave super seniority to unemployed former pilots who still held seniority/recall rights they sort of made this problem happen and they knew it would happen. ALPA chose to deal with the fall out later and just put the lists together. You (or anyone) can say it was an independent arbitrator, but there was everyone at CAL knew the pilots would be thrown under the bus just to save ALPA.
Now that ALPA has survived, ALPA will need to reassess how it can screw those pilots some more (or not). Curious to see what happens next. I do believe in about 2 to 3 years it will all wash out, but those that are "on the outside looking in" should remember, if it wasn't for the merger they would still be unemployed and there would have been about 1400 people still looking for a job. So, if those that are trying to break the glass to get inside want to truly break the glass, so be it. But, ALPA knows that they had to stiff arm the problem for about 5 years for things to wash and then hopefully by then ALPA National could get the pilots motivated, unified, and rallied around a few common enemies (foreign cabotage, UAL management).
I am just calling it like I see it. I think ALPA knew this was going to happen, but it chose to deal with the fall out later and just get it done for the sake of the survival of the association. The buerocracy is ALPA is very strong, and their unity within the tent is a testament to the resolve of the association. Contrast that with the FA unions and see how far apart they still are.
No employees had a vote in this merger. This was a UAL/CAL management and BOD decision. All employee groups were affected and none had a choice in the outcome. While I fully respect anyone's opinion on their perception of the current situation, I think their position is formed and colored by their "legacy" company and their current position on the list and their quality of life, and their perceived justice/or injustice.
This merger was far from perfect, but it is what it is. I only hope that ALPA displays the same long term resolve and loyalty to the pilots they sacrificed via seniority in order to make this happen that they did to those that were currently unemployed when the merger took place and needed a leg up to get a paycheck.
ALPA will stiff arm it from both sides (CAL and L UAL) because ALPA knows in about 2 to 3 years, due to retirements this all blows over. By then, those looking through the window will have a new window and a new seat to go with it.
I agree that there would be 1400 ish pilots looking for work at this point, but they were not the one you referenced. As it turns out airplane orders made in 06-07 don't make pilot jobs in 2015. What makes pilot jobs is having routes for airplanes to fly on! The shift in 737 metal from legacy CAL routes to legacy UAL routes has far outweighed the shift of legacy UAL metal to legacy CAL routes.
I did not ask for this merger and I will deal with the results of all of it as that is the ugly part of what we all signed up for in this career. But I have a tough time when people make statements like your outlandish post that have no basis in the facts of what has happened and continues to happen with the actual flying. Disparaging the formerly furloughed UA pilots (I am not a member of that group) saying they should not have been given any credit for their career at United and should not have been any credit for all the unused routes that their airline brought to the merger is ridiculous on its face, thankfully the arbitrators agreed.
Fortunately for all 737 pilots, UCHs ineptitude at training pilots and manpower planning in general has made it so they have not had much ability to bump the excess in IAH up to this point. They needed all the training slots to cover the new aircraft delivery and get those new airplanes into bases that made sense. Any bumping is bad and I don't wish it upon any pilot regardless of how they got to our airline. I hope for the IAH 737 Captains that have already been bumped and those that are apparently going to be, that they go to a plane and seat they like.
Unfortunately, the training capacity issue did not effect the 747 pilots that were bumped, 777 pilots that were bumped, 757/767 pilots that were bumped, and A320 pilots that were bumped, so they have already suffered through the bumping.
My ultimate hope is that we have enough growth for every pilot (not just the IAH ones) to get the bid they want and the schedule they want. Hopefully the theoretical benefits of the long term value of this merger will actually be delivered to those of us that should benefit (not just the short term financial benefits management has taken for themselves)
05-25-2015, 04:55 PM
#194
Banned
Joined APC: Oct 2012
Posts: 218
Originally Posted by pilot64golfer
Well we didn't get a windfall and we didn't decert ALPA so history has shown this to be false.
05-25-2015, 05:10 PM
#195
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,159
Originally Posted by pilot64golfer
So you're talking about the UAL 1997 hires and beyond that were paired with pilots with less than half as much per-merger seniority, right?
I am talking about those folks that were unemployed and who did not have a bid position or were not active employees. When the furloughed pilots were hired is immaterial. UAL decided to park the 737 which resulted in the most junior of their ranks to be furloughed 1400 deep.
If a company furloughed to 1979 hire date it's not material, evidently the company must be having some very big troubles in order to do that.
A 1997 hire working for company X that is bankrupt is clearly worse off than a 1998 hire who has never missed a day of work due to furlough.
The only reason those 1400 furloughed pilots got recalled was due to the merger.
same logic as UAL obtaining those 3 L10-11's from PAN AM. The Pan Am guys got date of Hire and UAL was livid. PO'd beyond belief. But the growth of the international pacific route system provided a windfall of over 540 pilot positions that benefited them in the near term and for the length of their careers. Totally changed the landscape. That deal created positions that never existed and would have never existed had the deal not been done.
This deal is no different. The CAL-UAL merger created positions that didn't exist and were never going to exist. This is a fact. It is really hard to disagree with this. It's common sense.
All I am saying in this: the deal created positions that did not exist. The 1400 pilots who were furloughed from UAL ( and their hire date could be whatever it was/is) were not going to be able to be recalled except for mandatory trickle retirements. No growth at all was planned or possible due to financial position and bankruptcy. The bankruptcy contract sealed that and that's no one's fault but UAL management's. The CAL deal provided a unique set of opportunities, much like the Pan Am transaction did. So, why were the Pan AM guys treated in one way by ALPA and the CAL guys treated so differently?
Again, in 2 to 3 years it solves itself, but I don't buy the whole outside the glass looking in thing. Hard for unity to happen when this sort of thing is going on. ALPA should be fairly representing everyone, not just the winners and loses it decides on. We're all paying dues, and the CAL pilots were all paying dues to ALPA, but last I checked the 1400 on furlough were not. So, in one way of looking at it, those CAL pilots who were working on the job for 10 plus years all had longer tenures in ALPA as dues paying members, comparative longevity with their respective companies as active employees and had never been furloughed or worked for a bankrupt airline.
05-25-2015, 05:16 PM
#196
Banned
Joined APC: Oct 2012
Posts: 218
Originally Posted by baseball
I am talking about those folks that were unemployed and who did not have a bid position or were not active employees. When the furloughed pilots were hired is immaterial. UAL decided to park the 737 which resulted in the most junior of their ranks to be furloughed 1400 deep.
If a company furloughed to 1979 hire date it's not material, evidently the company must be having some very big troubles in order to do that.
A 1997 hire working for company X that is bankrupt is clearly worse off than a 1998 hire who has never missed a day of work due to furlough.
The only reason those 1400 furloughed pilots got recalled was due to the merger.
same logic as UAL obtaining those 3 L10-11's from PAN AM. The Pan Am guys got date of Hire and UAL was livid. PO'd beyond belief. But the growth of the international pacific route system provided a windfall of over 540 pilot positions that benefited them in the near term and for the length of their careers. Totally changed the landscape. That deal created positions that never existed and would have never existed had the deal not been done.
This deal is no different. The CAL-UAL merger created positions that didn't exist and were never going to exist. This is a fact. It is really hard to disagree with this. It's common sense.
All I am saying in this: the deal created positions that did not exist. The 1400 pilots who were furloughed from UAL ( and their hire date could be whatever it was/is) were not going to be able to be recalled except for mandatory trickle retirements. No growth at all was planned or possible due to financial position and bankruptcy. The bankruptcy contract sealed that and that's no one's fault but UAL management's. The CAL deal provided a unique set of opportunities, much like the Pan Am transaction did. So, why were the Pan AM guys treated in one way by ALPA and the CAL guys treated so differently?
Again, in 2 to 3 years it solves itself, but I don't buy the whole outside the glass looking in thing. Hard for unity to happen when this sort of thing is going on. ALPA should be fairly representing everyone, not just the winners and loses it decides on. We're all paying dues, and the CAL pilots were all paying dues to ALPA, but last I checked the 1400 on furlough were not. So, in one way of looking at it, those CAL pilots who were working on the job for 10 plus years all had longer tenures in ALPA as dues paying members, comparative longevity with their respective companies as active employees and had never been furloughed or worked for a bankrupt airline.
If a company furloughed to 1979 hire date it's not material, evidently the company must be having some very big troubles in order to do that.
A 1997 hire working for company X that is bankrupt is clearly worse off than a 1998 hire who has never missed a day of work due to furlough.
The only reason those 1400 furloughed pilots got recalled was due to the merger.
same logic as UAL obtaining those 3 L10-11's from PAN AM. The Pan Am guys got date of Hire and UAL was livid. PO'd beyond belief. But the growth of the international pacific route system provided a windfall of over 540 pilot positions that benefited them in the near term and for the length of their careers. Totally changed the landscape. That deal created positions that never existed and would have never existed had the deal not been done.
This deal is no different. The CAL-UAL merger created positions that didn't exist and were never going to exist. This is a fact. It is really hard to disagree with this. It's common sense.
All I am saying in this: the deal created positions that did not exist. The 1400 pilots who were furloughed from UAL ( and their hire date could be whatever it was/is) were not going to be able to be recalled except for mandatory trickle retirements. No growth at all was planned or possible due to financial position and bankruptcy. The bankruptcy contract sealed that and that's no one's fault but UAL management's. The CAL deal provided a unique set of opportunities, much like the Pan Am transaction did. So, why were the Pan AM guys treated in one way by ALPA and the CAL guys treated so differently?
Again, in 2 to 3 years it solves itself, but I don't buy the whole outside the glass looking in thing. Hard for unity to happen when this sort of thing is going on. ALPA should be fairly representing everyone, not just the winners and loses it decides on. We're all paying dues, and the CAL pilots were all paying dues to ALPA, but last I checked the 1400 on furlough were not. So, in one way of looking at it, those CAL pilots who were working on the job for 10 plus years all had longer tenures in ALPA as dues paying members, comparative longevity with their respective companies as active employees and had never been furloughed or worked for a bankrupt airline.
Well said.
05-25-2015, 05:17 PM
#197
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,159
Originally Posted by GoCats67
I agree that there would be 1400 ish pilots looking for work at this point, but they were not the one you referenced. As it turns out airplane orders made in 06-07 don't make pilot jobs in 2015. What makes pilot jobs is having routes for airplanes to fly on! The shift in 737 metal from legacy CAL routes to legacy UAL routes has far outweighed the shift of legacy UAL metal to legacy CAL routes.
My ultimate hope is that we have enough growth for every pilot (not just the IAH ones) to get the bid they want and the schedule they want. Hopefully the theoretical benefits of the long term value of this merger will actually be delivered to those of us that should benefit (not just the short term financial benefits management has taken for themselves)
However, I disagree with your assertion regarding routes. It's a two way shift. Pre-merger UAL and CAL only had 9 routes that over-lapped. All 9 routes were retained and have been retained. The shift is two ways. While the 737 is contracting in some bases and on some routes, the airbus has jumped in and filled that void. I see a net gain in overall pilot positions in CAL bases. Not looking at metal at all, just looking at bodies. I honestly don't care what metal I fly, just as long as I have an airplane that suits the family's schedule.
The benefits of the merger will only be realized when all of the work groups get contracts. I find it absolutely insane that the FA contracts aren't done yet. Do you mean to tell me it's a bigger deal to pour a Coke-a-cola on one legacy carrier over another? It only takes about 2 weeks to train up a FA. We have harmonized thousands of pages of manuals and procedures and we can fly mixed crews but UAL/CAL FA's cannot? Crazy. They must have the pilots outnumbered 5 to 1, so there's some big money to save there if they decide to figure it out.
05-25-2015, 05:29 PM
#198
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: A320 Cap
Posts: 2,282
Originally Posted by baseball
I agree that I hope there is enough growth both organically and due to retirements to make everyone happy.
However, I disagree with your assertion regarding routes. It's a two way shift. Pre-merger UAL and CAL only had 9 routes that over-lapped. All 9 routes were retained and have been retained. The shift is two ways. While the 737 is contracting in some bases and on some routes, the airbus has jumped in and filled that void. I see a net gain in overall pilot positions in CAL bases. Not looking at metal at all, just looking at bodies. I honestly don't care what metal I fly, just as long as I have an airplane that suits the family's schedule.
The benefits of the merger will only be realized when all of the work groups get contracts. I find it absolutely insane that the FA contracts aren't done yet. Do you mean to tell me it's a bigger deal to pour a Coke-a-cola on one legacy carrier over another? It only takes about 2 weeks to train up a FA. We have harmonized thousands of pages of manuals and procedures and we can fly mixed crews but UAL/CAL FA's cannot? Crazy. They must have the pilots outnumbered 5 to 1, so there's some big money to save there if they decide to figure it out.
However, I disagree with your assertion regarding routes. It's a two way shift. Pre-merger UAL and CAL only had 9 routes that over-lapped. All 9 routes were retained and have been retained. The shift is two ways. While the 737 is contracting in some bases and on some routes, the airbus has jumped in and filled that void. I see a net gain in overall pilot positions in CAL bases. Not looking at metal at all, just looking at bodies. I honestly don't care what metal I fly, just as long as I have an airplane that suits the family's schedule.
The benefits of the merger will only be realized when all of the work groups get contracts. I find it absolutely insane that the FA contracts aren't done yet. Do you mean to tell me it's a bigger deal to pour a Coke-a-cola on one legacy carrier over another? It only takes about 2 weeks to train up a FA. We have harmonized thousands of pages of manuals and procedures and we can fly mixed crews but UAL/CAL FA's cannot? Crazy. They must have the pilots outnumbered 5 to 1, so there's some big money to save there if they decide to figure it out.
05-25-2015, 05:29 PM
#199
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: 737 fo
Posts: 908
Originally Posted by Scott Stoops
Look, there is a lt of angst going on right now. Look at the junior man list recently posted on the other site. The junior denver 737 cap is over 4000 numbers junior to how the last "bid" went a couple of years ago. There are a bunch of us on the outside looking in...
This is why I was saying people are jealous of the 05-06 hires in earlier posts.
05-25-2015, 05:52 PM
#200
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2008
Position: B-777 left
Posts: 1,415
Originally Posted by baseball
I agree that I hope there is enough growth both organically and due to retirements to make everyone happy.
However, I disagree with your assertion regarding routes. It's a two way shift. Pre-merger UAL and CAL only had 9 routes that over-lapped. All 9 routes were retained and have been retained. The shift is two ways. While the 737 is contracting in some bases and on some routes, the airbus has jumped in and filled that void. I see a net gain in overall pilot positions in CAL bases. Not looking at metal at all, just looking at bodies. I honestly don't care what metal I fly, just as long as I have an airplane that suits the family's schedule.
The benefits of the merger will only be realized when all of the work groups get contracts. I find it absolutely insane that the FA contracts aren't done yet. Do you mean to tell me it's a bigger deal to pour a Coke-a-cola on one legacy carrier over another? It only takes about 2 weeks to train up a FA. We have harmonized thousands of pages of manuals and procedures and we can fly mixed crews but UAL/CAL FA's cannot? Crazy. They must have the pilots outnumbered 5 to 1, so there's some big money to save there if they decide to figure it out.
However, I disagree with your assertion regarding routes. It's a two way shift. Pre-merger UAL and CAL only had 9 routes that over-lapped. All 9 routes were retained and have been retained. The shift is two ways. While the 737 is contracting in some bases and on some routes, the airbus has jumped in and filled that void. I see a net gain in overall pilot positions in CAL bases. Not looking at metal at all, just looking at bodies. I honestly don't care what metal I fly, just as long as I have an airplane that suits the family's schedule.
The benefits of the merger will only be realized when all of the work groups get contracts. I find it absolutely insane that the FA contracts aren't done yet. Do you mean to tell me it's a bigger deal to pour a Coke-a-cola on one legacy carrier over another? It only takes about 2 weeks to train up a FA. We have harmonized thousands of pages of manuals and procedures and we can fly mixed crews but UAL/CAL FA's cannot? Crazy. They must have the pilots outnumbered 5 to 1, so there's some big money to save there if they decide to figure it out.
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