So what really is your point? That we should never negotiate for reserve improvements, or most qol issues for that matter, and just negotiate money instead? Is that the crux of your stance or do you just have some sort of disdain for folks who are on reserve?

 

I have no disdain for the folks on reserve, but if they are going to vote no merely because there are no reserve improvements, that appears very self centered to me. To desire to deny 12,000 pilots industry leading pay because 15-18% of the pilot group didn't get any improvements seems very "ladder up". Especially because in this situation there is no mechanism to GET improved reserve rules outside of a full section 6 negotiation, which usually takes years. Mind you, there are no reserve consessions so the reserve system is EXACTLY what folks signed up for when they bid a seat on reserve, chose to stay in their seat on reserve, or get hired into a seat on reserve. Line holders didn't get any QOL improvements either. I don't know why reserve improvements weren't achieved. Maybe the company valued them so highly that it wasn't worth the negotiating capital since it only benefits a small group vs spending that capital to benefit the entire group. I wasn't there so I don't know how the negotiations went.

Btw, you hold the AMR and DAL reserve system up as the standard we should hope to achieve. In many key areas our reserve system is better from what I gather talking to my buddies there. If turning down this deal was going to somehow get reserve improvements, then maybe that would be something worth looking at. But it won't. Not the way this deal was structured. I know some people think that the company is so desperate that they would just open the checkbook and write any number we want. Come on. Anyone who has worked for United for any length of time should know very well that's not true. I'm guessing that the new leadership wanted to buy a little labor peace and be able to operate some new long haul flights in a more reliable way. They've started plenty of international routes without this new agreement so I'm sure they would manage just fine without it. I'm sure the negotiating committee would say that they've reached the limit of what the company was going to offer. Many on this forum disagree. That's fine, but I would rather trust the word of the people that were in the room. Not someone who is sitting at his computer coming up with theories.

 

I don't think it's self-centered. The reserve system does need to be improved. I sat reserve under the old CAL contract for 3 years. That was true punishment. I have not been under the new system. From friends and guys I fly with, who are exCal, it's way better than the cal contract but the company has found some exploits. They are now turning the screws on the intent of our reserve system creating some Qol issues for our junior peeps. Should it have been addressed in the extension? Absolutely. (Like you said)It may have been but the company could have wanted too much in return in the negotiator's eyes. But it certainly isn't selfish to want reserve changes anymore than its selfish to try to make new hire pay attractive for prospective newbies. At some point all pilots are new hires. And at some point every pilot is on reserve so improving reserve should definitely be a priority for all pilots. I'm not gonna argue because I just don't enjoy bickering on the Internet but I understand what you're saying and I see your point but I see it slightly differently.

I'm still for a 16% raise though because I'M a selfish bastard

Another point I'd like to throw out there is that a lot of older guys sat reserve under a system that is vastly different than the one we have today. Old contract(previous to the toilet paper CAL contract of 2004) a reserve could simply tell scheduling that they would rather not fly the assignment given to them and scheduling would just continue down the list until they found somebody who wanted to do it or they would end up calling the guy back and say hey it's yours anyway. Stuff like that and FAR 117 have made the new reserve completely different. So keep in an open mind about what guys on this forum are saying about our reserve system.

Cheers



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

My apologies. I did take it out of context.

 

Hi cal73,

All fair points. I actually used to be able to pass on reserve assignments if there was someone junior to me when at my old regional (ACA). Interesting concept and might be worth a look here someday as well.

I didn't at all mean to infer that WANTING reserve improvements was selfish. Not at all. I too wish there had been some in the AIP. I guess my point is simply that for whatever reason they aren't in there. I'm guessing we will hear why from the negotiating team at some point, but maybe not. Since they aren't in there, the question becomes do we say "no" to the deal just because of that? I know a pilot on reserve who is planning on voting no for that very reason, even though he understands that there isn't a mechanism in these particular negotiations to go back and try to secure them. The alternative is to punt the ball to section 6 and go through that whole process, which can/will take years and may not get any reserve improvements anyway. In the meantime 12,000 of us lose a chance to secure industry leading pay AND a me-too clause with DAL. Ironically, this same pilot is quite upset about the inclusion of LOA 25 pay because he says we shouldn't waste money on something that only affects a small subset of pilots. My attempt at explaining the hypocrisy of that position fell on deaf ears.

I see your point, and I just wanted to be clear that I don't at all begrudge the reserve folks from wanting improvements and being disappointed they aren't in there. But a no vote simply because one is mad at them not being included seems to be narrow minded to me.

Appreciate the civil tone and thanks for calling me out on sounding snarky when I shouldn't have. Didn't mean it to come across that way. Happy Thanksgiving!

 

I'm digging the new kinder, gentler vibe on APC. The arguments are good on both sides, but in the end, if the rumors are true, this extension passes easily. As it should. Industry leading rates. Period. With a 'me too' clause for insurance AND we fix LOA 25. These two items were the biggest gripes on contract 2012. Go back and read the posts on this forum if you don't believe me. Guys we're ****ed that we weren't going to make as much as DAL until 2015, and guys we're ****ed about LOA 25. Now, with these items fixed in a BIG way, we want more, more, more? I get it....it's like the old joke..."you mean we have to work EVERY Thursday!!" Pilots are never satisfied. But this deal, if true, passes easily. Watch and see.

Sled

 

In the past and on other blogboards, I've seen much greater "negativity" on agreements that eventually passed by 65+%.

This board and issue seems to be pretty evenly split...probably passes comfortably...not the slightest bit scientific...good luck.

 

Had a high level MEC rep stop by the flight deck a couple days ago. Regarding reserve improvements the company wanted concessions there. They wanted to be able to put reserve on call/assignment earlier than 1000 first day. The MEC said no, no concessions will be considered on this extension, so it was dropped. That's why the reserve improvement wasn't addressed in the final extension.

 

Read my above post regarding why reserve was not fixed....

 

Thanks for the update Hilltopper. I figured it was something like that.