TSRAGR

I'm working on making sure all my numbers match and have imported everything into not only LogTen Pro, but also Airline Apps. As I've done this, I've found some time errors, that I have no idea how to correct. So here's the jist.
In airline apps it shows my time off my 2.8hrs and I know the culprit is my T-38 IP time somewhere.

I guess the biggest question is what constitutes total time? I've logged time as PIC, Other, IP, Dual Received and Evaluator.

It gets really trickey/schetchy in the following instances. Two IPs in same aircraft, the dude in the front is the PIC, but if the dude in the back is flying and instructing another student in another jet, he logs the total time and IP time, but not PIC. The reverse is also true. If i'm in the front, I log total, PIC and any portion in which i'm instructing which isn't necessarily the whole sortie.

Example. Sortie A: I logged 1.3 Total, 1.3 PIC (front cockpit/signed for jet) but only .7 IP time. (the other .6 i'm just sitting there watching. Not SIC, b/c it's not a 2 person a/c) Is this .6 floating in space messing w/my numbers somewhere?

Anyone with experience like this out there? Former T-38 IPs that can talk to this? I feel like this shouldn't be a tough corner to hack, but i've gone through all 1100 sorties and can't find anything else that looks weird.

thanks.

Adlerdriver

Total time is just that. What label you give various portions of that 1.3 in your example doesn't change the fact the all of it goes toward total time. I don't see how you're having trouble figuring out what constitutes total time. Figure out the total amount of time your a$$ has spent with air under it in all the various aircraft you have flown and total it up.

The PIC calculation can be more of a challenge depending on aircraft, mission and the airline's rules on what they consider PIC. Most airlines probably really care about total time and PIC time. All the other breakdowns of EP, IP, Dual, etc. is just another small way to put together a complete picture of a candidate.

To address your scenario, that one seems pretty clear regarding PIC. Since you signed for the jet, all 1.3 is PIC, as you said. The fact that you instructed for .7 has no bearing on anything, really. You get .7 in your instructor time column. The fact that you didn't give a label to the other .6 shouldn't create an error and it's not "floating" anywhere. It's already got a label (i.e. PIC) because the entire 1.3 is already accounted for in your PIC time as well as total time.

TSRAGR

thanks for the reply.

I know the Total time question seemed elementary, but I can't find the freakin' error so that was leading me to think something was wrong w/the bigger picture logging. The problem isn't w/my total time is what is constituting it.

The exact situation is as follows, 1127hrs Total t38 time: 80 PIC, 799 IP, 212 Dual Received and 33 Other, which equals 1124 not 1127. I can't find where the other da#m hours are.

Was just hoping someone on the outside might have had a similar situation. I've looked through all 1100 sorties, twice, and can't find the error.

Guess it's time for look #3.

Adlerdriver

I can see a big problem right off the bat. You're treating some of the labels you're giving your times as mutually exclusive (i.e. PIC is separate from IP). This was not the case in my person situation. Every IP hour I logged was also part of my PIC total.

In your example from your previous post, you had 1.3 hours of PIC and of course all that goes into total time as well. But, you also had .7 of IP time on the same sortie. Your IP time is part of your PIC time for that flight. You can't add up PIC and IP time to get total time for that sortie because if you did, you'd end up with 2.0. So, if you're determining your total time by adding up the various categories of times you listed, it seems inevitable that you would induce errors just looking at the one 1.3 hour sortie you gave as an example.

Looking at the times you posted above, I'm confused. Have you only flown the T-38 for the USAF (i.e. are you a FAIP?). Are you saying that your managed to log 799 hours as an IP and NONE of those IP hours are considered PIC? I'm not sure how that could be possible.

As an instructor, aren't you usually with a student?

TSRAGR

Not a faip, my other flying is self explanatory, all single seat, all PIC. The above example is just a breakout from airline apps. They want IP removed from PIC (I don't know why) So I just took my PIC time, minus my IP time and placed that in the column, in reality I've logged 865 PIC with 799 of that being IP (in the -38).

With 2 IPs in a jet vs/ a student in another jet, whomever was in the front was the PIC, but both dudes would split IP time. Hence it was common to log something like this: Total 1.0, PIC 1.0, IP .5. or if in the rear-cockpit and not PIC, Total 1.0, IP .5, other .5 (with no PIC). I think these two areas are the places where something is wrong, but I'm on my third look now and still can't find a problem.

Adlerdriver

I think the fact that you're splitting IP time when you're in the back seat is going to create issues. That just seems a little strange. One student and two IPs? That may be the way your unit decided to do things, but that's internal USAF stuff. Airlines aren't going to "get" that. You're really going to muddy the waters if you try to incorporate that into your times.

If I were interviewing you and we started discussing this situation, as a former USAF pilot, I think I'd have some pretty pointed questions.
-How do you stop and start instructing on a sortie?
-Who briefed/debriefed the student?
-Could the pilot in the front seat have briefed, flown the entire mission, instructed the student, debriefed with an empty backseat? (i.e. were you a required crewmember back there?)

If you log a 1.0 of PIC from the front seat and .5 of IP time, are you putting that .5 into the airline app as IP time? If so, then I think you're setting yourself up for some hard questions in the interview because you're counting that .5 twice.

I'm not an expert on the whole airline app thing, but if they're asking you to break out IP time from PIC time, it's probably because they naturally assume you're instructing a student with you in your aircraft. So, they want to know when you're flying a jet as PIC and when you're riding in back watching a student in the front. Either way, you're the PIC and I'll bet they add those two numbers together to get a real PIC total.

Personally, I think you'd have a hard time explaining to an airline how you're logging IP hours from the back of a T-38 with another fully qualified IP in the front seat who signs for the jet and logs the entire flight as PIC.

TSRAGR

Pretty sure I found the problem. Although we would split IP time, the FARs allow logging of PIC when you're the IP. So the time I was the IP of record but didn't log PIC b/c there was another IP in the front, should have been PIC time. The differences between these two is the exact amount my logs are off.

Yes it's a strange practice, and i'm happy to explain it in an interview as honestly as I can. I did what I was told to wrt logging time. I certainly didn't try to fudge 20hrs of PIC time when I have 2000 PIC hrs. If it's a Mil vs. Civilian thing, they can discard the hours. And yes, we would have two IPs in one jet and a solo stud in the other jet. and yes, we would both debrief the SP (although only 1 would brief). Looking back at this point to see who "briefed" the SP would be impossible, and more of a "fudge of the numbers" than honestly explaining the practice. Whether it's right or wrong in the civilian world, I don't know, but it the "correct" practice to do in upt.

I suppose the correct answer is just remove the IP hours for when I was not in the FCP, even if I instructed. That seems to be the most safe choice and a whopping 16 hrs less IP time is no big deal.

This took way too many brain bites.

Adlerdriver

Ok. I'm glad you got the times to sync up. I won't beat a dead horse too much, but I think you have some other issues to solve. You really need to get a few extra sets of eyes on these numbers and your method for logging and give them the sniff test. You want to figure this out and have it make sense to the airlines that interview you - not just make the number add up right. Just some friendly advice if you want it.

Of course the FARs allow IP time to be consider PIC. That's standard ops. But in the situation you describe above (you in the backseat of another IP), who are you the IP of record for? The IP in the front seat (like you're checking him out as an IP)? Or the student in the other jet?

If you're the IP for the IP in the front seat, great, then you get to log PIC time. If you're instructing the student, then I seriously doubt you'll be able to justify logging that time as PIC.

Based on previous statements you made, isn't the guy in the front seat logging PIC time and signing for the jet? So, you're each going to log a 1.0 of PIC time on a 1.0 long sortie? I'm pretty sure there can only be one PIC for a flight.

TSRAGR

Luckily there were only 30 total sorties, about 16hrs. So i moved all the hours to just other time. 16 less IP hours isn't going to kill anyone, espec. since I can't prove who the actual IP was. I'll take this as a lesson for the future.

Thanks for all the advice; I'll definitely have someone QC this stuff before submission. Thankfully i'm still 18mon out.

joepilot

The airlines have their own definition of PIC, which does not match that of the FAA.

The airline wants to know who signed for the jet.

As far as the FAA is concerned, it is possible for an aircraft to have from zero to three people logging PIC at the same time in the same aircraft.

Joe