MikeF16

While I was an instructor, we didn't wash out a single international. It didn't matter if they were from a rich oil monarchy or a poor land locked African or South American country. You guys think I'm being rude, but if an international student washed out of UPT during the easiest phase of the easiest airplane, then I am probably saving their life by recommending they seek another line of work. Seriously, instruments in a T-6 is not hard and is more transferable to a career in civil aviation than anything else taught in the military.

Sometimes good advice isn't what somebody wants to hear. Based on half the replies here, sounds like you all did a great job telling your bosses exactly what they liked. Good job, you'll continue to excel in today's Air Force.

2loud

Dude, if you can make an intelligent factual argument then no one would jump on you but you're a quite bit off and outright rude. First off, the OP stated that he washed out AFTER the instrument phase. It could be a typo on his part but that's what he wrote. In OP's defense, all he was doing was asking for advise on how he can advance his aviation career from this point in time. Instead of helping, you kicked the guy when he was down. There, you like my no bs approach? You would have really liked my debriefs!
I don't sugar coat things and I definitely don't kiss a$$. If I did, I would have stayed in and would be collecting an AD retirement right now.

Adlerdriver

You said this:
Then you said you didn't say it:

Now you're defending and basically repeating what you said you didn't say:
No wonder we're a little confused. I'm all for calling a spade a spade if necessary and I rarely worry about hurt feelings in those situations. You think the guy shouldn't fly, fine. Maybe your point wasn't as clearly made as you thought. I'm not sure the rest of the hostility and insults focused on anyone who might disagree is really helping you deliver your message effectively either.

Extenda

UPT is a harsh mistress. Guys can stretch out their PPL, CMEL etc as long as they want. Wanna chair fly or study some regs for a few more days before your check ride? no problem. at UPT you are on speed with the program or you are out. A lot of guys who can't keep up with the UPT timeline can thrive in the less "high-speed" civilian world.

FLY6584

EXACTLY. I saw plenty of dudes who really struggled in T-6's, but kept a positive attitude, and then it finally clicked for them in T-1's and they made excellent pilots. The most frustrating part is that sometimes the syllabus affords the wrong guy more rides and the right guy not enough.

USMCFLYR

To all of those advising the OP to use the GI Bill and such, please remember his earlier statement:
He wasn't in the the USAF.

I think I understood what you meant Mike, but then you go further to try and accuse people of kissing butt and insinuate that this is the only way to serve in the military. It got a lot harder to wash people out of the advanced training programs in the late 2000s too. We had one Navy guy basically get to go through the ENTIRE program (probably about 75-80% of it) again. He had a lot of prior civilian time and between all the money spent up to this point and figuring that he might not be the 'ace of the base', but a competent wingman, he was given extra training and made it through. That would not have happened in the late 80s/early90s - times are changing (or they had) and I expect that they have remain changed in the current environment.

I say it often on these forums but I'm certainly glad that I didn't have the same military experience that many of you seemed to have had. I chuckle to think that someone who knows me thinks that I told the bosses only what they wanted to hear - then or now for that matter! I think my boss' (retired USAF type) recent comment to me during my annual PER of 'Man....sometimes you really wear me smooth...but keep it coming' speaks volumes.

I had a good friend in Primary whom I helped quite a bit. He had ZERO prior aviation experience (on top of going through a hard divorce during flight school). YEARS later he calls me out of the blue after I'd been in BEaufort SC for a few months. He had landed his Cobra on our ramp and saw my name on the side of a plane and racked me down. Seems that helos were where his hidden talent. He excelled in the HTs. Fast forward a few more years and we meet again in Quantico. He had just finished a tour in T-34s teaching those same Primary flight students.

Fly6584 and Extenda - I think you nail it pretty well.

Vito

I kept my old T-37 and T-38 pubs. The other day I was leafing through my old T-38 In-Flight Guide and was shocked at the departures and approaches we flew back then (1986 CBM) If I had to fly one of them today in a 767 I'd have to study and brief it for 20 minutes! I've always said that UPT wasn't about teaching students to fly, but managing a tremendous amount of knowledge and "built in" pressure, both time pressures and skill-sets. Like others have mentioned, most students, given enough time can pass UPT, but thats not the point of it. We washed out guys in my class that had hundreds of hours prior to entering UPT and we washed out 50% (2 out of 4) Kuwaiti pilots as well. It was a different time back then. To the OP's original question, a few of my ex-classmates who washed out went on to successful airline careers. Good Luck

blastoff

Exactly. My saying has always been, "you don't go to UPT to learn to fly. Big Blue sends you there to see if you can process internal and external stress--while learning to fly."

2loud

This is important to note. Timing is everything. Remember the early '90s when 1/2 of the UPT grads were getting banked and the washout rates increased? We lost over 1/3 of our class and a couple of them washed out of T-38s in the last few weeks prior to graduation. Some classes washed out up to 50%-very rare but happened. Fast forward a decade...it took an act of God to wash anyone out. I remember flying with a kid who had failed 3 rides in a row for the second time (the old 3 and out program); I think it was called the "89 ride". I had to make the final call on whether he stayed or took a hike. It was one of the most difficult decisions of my life but I had to fail him. In reality, the decision was a no brainer since he didn't know his $hit and was the biggest hamfist I had ever flown with. On top of that, he puked right into his mask so I had listen to the "slurping" sound for the rest of the sortie. But still, it's a tough thing to crush someone's dream. Fyi, in my entire time in AETC, I only failed 2 students. Anyways, the kid meets the FEB and miraculously gets reinstated! Shortly thereafter, I got out of AD and I never found out if he had made it through the program.
Though I believe that SUPT does a good job producing the finest pilots but if there was one flaw that needs to fixed, it would be the "every sortie is a checkride" mentality.

crewdawg

The Air Force can't afford to wash that many people out right now. They've created their own shortage and can't seem to catch up. Luck and timing is everything!

I remember listening to some old crusty blue suit, sim instructor talk about his very thing when I was in pilot training (mid 2000s). He had just retired from the reserves and spent most of his LONG career in AETC (or ATC for you old dudes). He mentioned that in the 80s/early 90s the AF just threw a ridiculous amount of guys into UPT and filtered them out there. Well the AF can't afford to do that these days and seems to be more stringent in UPT selects. He thought that the average UPT stud was a better candidate than that of those in the years past. His words.

Not sure how big class sizes were back then, but for reference my class only had 25 studs and 2 washed out.