LJCub

It’s not only averaging that is the problem. It’s that there are only two snap up dates and even then we’re snapping up to the average of the prior years numbers if you will.

For example, next September, we’ll be basing our snap up with our DOS+1 rate vs their DOS rate. Then a few months later (or whenever the big guys get their deals), they pass us again with their own DOS+1 numbers. Rinse repeat the following September for our final snap up.

So we’re effectively September 2024 snapping up to their DOS+1 rates and DL and the rest will still have their DOS+2 and DOS+3 rate increases that we won’t be able to snap up too. At that point, at least with DL, we’ll be at least $28 behind them in pay which is obviously worse than where we were this summer. The only recourse would be for the company to realize that’s not sustainable for hiring and attrition and want to try to get a new contract instead of dragging their feet again

All Bizniz

Averaging was not the best idea, but I wouldn't call it terrible, and I think they shot for better than industry average, but ended up where we did because it was a heavy lift getting out from under the dog pile.

I think the true measure of our success will be what we achieve in our next cycle, since we'll then be negotiating from a much better position.​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​

ShyGuy

Um, yes, so you recognize that if that's the case, you spent your DOS at #1 in the industry. They lagged behind 1 yr. I don't see how that's a problem. That's just a fact of getting a new contract 1 yr sooner than them.

Not to mention, it's a 3 yr contract and I would think that as long as the airline industry is doing good in 2024, we'll be back at the table. Unlike 2017-2022, AS won't be able to afford to stall. I'm not worried. The 2023 snap probably won't mean much unless 3 / 4 majors have new contracts, but the Sept 2024 snap up to average will help get us through the next contract cycle.

ShyGuy

I find it ironic if someone has been here 20 yrs, but feels it was Contract 2022 where the union sold out the pilot group. It's almost as if we're selectively forgetting 2008-2016.

This thread is an emotional response. Delta got this, Delta got that. There are those who would think we should take Delta's AIP, slap it on the desk to AS mgt, and they should sign it. Unfortunately, that's not how it works. In the end, I chose to listen to ALPA's EFA team. They are the leading experts in our pilot field for studying, evaluating, and recommending based on company's current and expected financial future, based on the current and expected economy future, and based on current and expected airline bargaining future. That is their subject matter expertise and their recommendations and guidance are based on that.

I don't feel sold out. It wasn't a perfect deal (far from it actually). But I feel comfortable and confident in this agreement to get us through end of 2024 when we start negotiating a new one 9 months early.

ExperimentalAB

I usually prefer to think for myself.

b73nav8r

https://contentsharing.net/actions/e...cZYWyL9h5MCQOY

Details of Delta AIP


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KnockKnock

Exactly... this is why I say we're on our way to being even further off the mark for industry TOS 737 pay than we were 3 months ago. This average up was designed by management to fail. It's nowhere near a real, "Me too" or "Snap up" clause. 3 of 4, if not all 4, airlines have to make gains said to be impossible by many in our group, in order to cancel out the low end of the average.
But honestly, our pay rate and average up, flop, is the least of the failures of our new CBA. Vacation day pay, health care premium reduction, per diem tied to government rates are just a few of items DL will get that we blew it on.
Like I said before, we righted the 4 wrongs of the 2017 JCBA and threw in the towel on the rest.

ShyGuy

"3 of 4, if not all 4, airlines have to make gains said to be impossible by many in our group, in order to cancel out the low end of the average."


So, flip side of that argument is if only 2/4 airlines get a new contract by Sept 1 2023, then you're still #3 in that list of overall 737 rates. While the other two are stuck at 285/hr.

The real benefit will be Sept 2024, at a point when all 5 carriers should have new contracts by then. AS will then see a much higher payrate than 331/hr. And while those carriers then have DOS+2, 3, or 4 remaining, AS enters negotiations and presumably will lead a new contract again with first out the door - it would be in their interest to be first again before any big 4 get another contract.

All Bizniz

Nothing in life is free. At least now we have a better picture about how it's being paid for..

Not upset or anything, just acknowledging the chess game that's called management/labor contract negotiations.​​​​​​​

LJCub

If we were in August 2023, then I could see your point about DOS being #1 for the year. We're not though. We're 5 weeks from the ink being dry on the new contract, days away from a majority of provisions finally being applied, and we see ourselves falling behind Delta by almost 10% with the others most likely to follow by September. And that is just the pay rates. Hopefully it's all 4 though so the first snap up will be meaningful.

My point, and I think you see it somewhat, is the lack of further snap ups. In the months leading up to the new contract, we lagged Delta on the -900 scale by $20 or 7.5%. If Delta's AIP becomes a new contract, I think it's safe to say the other 3 will use those rates as the benchmark. So as it's currently written, Delta will be around $30 and 8.5% higher than us as they receive their DOS+3 in early 2026 with the rest to follow most likely in the months after that. That will make it 2 rate increases without us having any snap up protections and will make us even further behind the top 4 heading into the next contract cycle than we were this time around.

While I am happy the 2 snap up's will help us some (I imagine their inclusion was a reason for the FOR vote to be so high), in my opinion they were not well thought out and are not nearly effective as they should be. One can rationalize and spin it all they want, but the numbers don't lie.

Bottom line, we will enter our next contract cycle further behind than we were going into this cycle and having established no precedent for the company to be penalized for bargaining in bad faith like last time. We'll basically be left up to hope the company comes to the table in their own self interests. Based on the Nov attrition numbers and what I imagine will be a short term spike from folks leaving after bonus payments, and now this new likely contract by Delta with it's own Seattle base, they're going to need to do something