Contract negotiations
02-20-2023, 04:39 AM
#1411
It's 5 o'clock somewhere
Joined APC: Oct 2020
Posts: 1,853
Originally Posted by JediCheese
Downgrades will be the kiss of death.
I'll point out the basic math on our situation for those already here. They say we're going to have 25% attrition in the recent investor call and we have 1000 pilots. That means we're going to lose 250 pilots this year. There are 12 months, 250/12 ≈ 20. Think we can fill a newhire class with 20 pilots every month to stay the same size?
I'll point out the basic math on our situation for those already here. They say we're going to have 25% attrition in the recent investor call and we have 1000 pilots. That means we're going to lose 250 pilots this year. There are 12 months, 250/12 ≈ 20. Think we can fill a newhire class with 20 pilots every month to stay the same size?
02-20-2023, 04:48 AM
#1412
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: A-320
Posts: 172
Originally Posted by JediCheese
A CA requires two training cycles vs a single training cycle for a FO when they leave. But if you want to stay the same size, you can just hire a single pilot to replace that CA.
You need to hire two pilots to make a new CA spot. If a CA leaves and you are shrinking, you are now surplus a FO! That shrinking math helps the company stay out of death spiral but it only lasts so long. They'd rather CAs leave than FOs leave right now despite the training churn.
You need to hire two pilots to make a new CA spot. If a CA leaves and you are shrinking, you are now surplus a FO! That shrinking math helps the company stay out of death spiral but it only lasts so long. They'd rather CAs leave than FOs leave right now despite the training churn.
When a CA leaves it is 2 training cycles not 2 pilots that are needed. Even the union boss said it wrong a while back. 'if a CA leaves you need one guy to upgrade and then another to replace the FO that upgraded'.
2 training events - 1 new hire. Not 2 new hires
CA spots will never go unfilled. It will be the low paying FO spots that are empty. And we will never get to forced upgrades. Point being, a CA leaving is no greater a tragedy for company other than a few sims.
02-20-2023, 08:06 AM
#1415
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2015
Posts: 403
Originally Posted by Scratch
Maybe we shouldn't be revealing personal information about people on this anonymous forum. It's kinda creepy and never leads to positive outcomes.
Right now there are literally zero show stoppers to getting on where you want to go. DUIs > They have HIMS now. Multiple checkride failures > AQP means only the dullest fail. The only hard show stopper for someone currently working at a 121 carrier is not applying.
02-21-2023, 09:20 AM
#1416
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2015
Position: A-320
Posts: 680
Originally Posted by Scratch
Maybe we shouldn't be revealing personal information about people on this anonymous forum. It's kinda creepy and never leads to positive outcomes.
Originally Posted by Be Realistic
So, anyone want to take a bet on how many new hires start today, and how many will still be here in 6 months?
I'll get the ball rolling. Less than 10 start, less than 5 still here in 6 months.
I'll get the ball rolling. Less than 10 start, less than 5 still here in 6 months.
02-21-2023, 10:27 AM
#1417
On Reserve
Joined APC: Oct 2021
Posts: 10
Originally Posted by KC135
I would normally agree but this would be that one exception where bfv did mention who he was in a previous post, very well known on the union page. I'd have to side with marg on this one, somebody needs to throw out the harsh and negative truth. I can tell that bfv hasn't flown with some of the new hires that I've flown with. A lot are just downright angry after they realize they were fed a pile of manure vs reality just to get them in the door.
I have to disagree. There shouldn't be an exception to doxxing no matter how much you disagree with somebody or how much they post on a private facebook group. bfv's post was embarrassing and borderline meltdown but it didn't deserve what the deleted post was revealing. Whoever deleted it seems to agree.
We should all be free to have embarrassing meltdowns without getting personal information posted. Right? Isn't that the fun of anonymous internet forums? Let bfv ruin his own reputation, no need to assist.
Worst case scenario is you're wrong about somebody's identity and affect an innocent person's reputation.
02-21-2023, 12:19 PM
#1418
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2022
Position: A320 CA
Posts: 53
Lunacy
This form has got it all, it really doesn't let you down. Here's the fact(s) of the matter from someone who has spent time in the "greener" pastures:
1. The grass truly isn't greener on the other side, it's just a different shade because the owner decided to turn on the sprinkler for a few years and the neighbor's dog didn't sh*t in it last night. EVERY airline has it's problems, when I was on the seniority list at one of the big four we had an equal amount of doomsday prophesying, saber rattling nonsense. Are the paychecks bigger? Absolutely, but does that matter when half of it is going to alimony and child support for the wife and kids you never got to see while commuting across the country living in your crashpad? There's a lot more to life than the money, those who haven't figured that out yet spend a little too much time with their left hand.
2. We all knew exactly what we were signing up for when we showed up for class. There aren't any secrets, those of us who have been here a while knew we were rolling the dice for a chance at being the next career destination. Those of you who are new, you have read the forums, you've asked the questions in the jumpseat and on Facebook. Yet there are so many of you that act shocked by the reality you face here. It's like touching the hot stove only to wonder why it burnt your hand.
3. It's Allegiant, we aren't Delta, we aren't United, we aren't Southwest and that will not change. Could management here grow this company into an airline that would have a name up there with those carriers? Of course, but according to all of you in the "know", we're shrinking to 500 pilots and 60 jets because Viva is coming to fly DSM-SFB. Get real. You really think the shareholders are going to go for that? You think the stock is rising again because we're actively shrinking? Q4 call, they made it clear we'd be growing at 4% this year, now unless I forgot what that means, it's still growth. Is it what we should be seeing? No, but it is a realistic target.
4. Viva is our nail in the coffin? I don't think so. It's clear that a majority of you on here haven't read any of the DOT filings as to what will actually happen with the Viva joint venture. Should we leave out the part where the company plans on adding 5000+ departures on our own metal to Mexico by 2026? Does that not fit your doom and gloom narrative? Do some of you seriously think that just because MOT gets a CUN flight, people aren't going to vacation in Disney or Vegas? If you'd bother to take your head out of the sand, you'd see that is as far fetched as Delta +10. But you're all right, I'm just the company propagandist who doesn't collect a paycheck to share the facts. Keep drinking that AR and Co. KoolAid.
5. We're going to get a contract, it isn't going to be Delta +10, it will get people in the door, we aren't getting a mass exodus like some of you foresaw, and we aren't shrinking to 500 pilots. Could I be wrong? Absolutely. Could AA go bankrupt by year end? Also possible as is every other hypothetical in our industry.
Show up, fly your jet, go home and see your family. If you don't like it, stop wasting your breath and show your distaste with your feet, every "greener pasture" is hiring.
1. The grass truly isn't greener on the other side, it's just a different shade because the owner decided to turn on the sprinkler for a few years and the neighbor's dog didn't sh*t in it last night. EVERY airline has it's problems, when I was on the seniority list at one of the big four we had an equal amount of doomsday prophesying, saber rattling nonsense. Are the paychecks bigger? Absolutely, but does that matter when half of it is going to alimony and child support for the wife and kids you never got to see while commuting across the country living in your crashpad? There's a lot more to life than the money, those who haven't figured that out yet spend a little too much time with their left hand.
2. We all knew exactly what we were signing up for when we showed up for class. There aren't any secrets, those of us who have been here a while knew we were rolling the dice for a chance at being the next career destination. Those of you who are new, you have read the forums, you've asked the questions in the jumpseat and on Facebook. Yet there are so many of you that act shocked by the reality you face here. It's like touching the hot stove only to wonder why it burnt your hand.
3. It's Allegiant, we aren't Delta, we aren't United, we aren't Southwest and that will not change. Could management here grow this company into an airline that would have a name up there with those carriers? Of course, but according to all of you in the "know", we're shrinking to 500 pilots and 60 jets because Viva is coming to fly DSM-SFB. Get real. You really think the shareholders are going to go for that? You think the stock is rising again because we're actively shrinking? Q4 call, they made it clear we'd be growing at 4% this year, now unless I forgot what that means, it's still growth. Is it what we should be seeing? No, but it is a realistic target.
4. Viva is our nail in the coffin? I don't think so. It's clear that a majority of you on here haven't read any of the DOT filings as to what will actually happen with the Viva joint venture. Should we leave out the part where the company plans on adding 5000+ departures on our own metal to Mexico by 2026? Does that not fit your doom and gloom narrative? Do some of you seriously think that just because MOT gets a CUN flight, people aren't going to vacation in Disney or Vegas? If you'd bother to take your head out of the sand, you'd see that is as far fetched as Delta +10. But you're all right, I'm just the company propagandist who doesn't collect a paycheck to share the facts. Keep drinking that AR and Co. KoolAid.
5. We're going to get a contract, it isn't going to be Delta +10, it will get people in the door, we aren't getting a mass exodus like some of you foresaw, and we aren't shrinking to 500 pilots. Could I be wrong? Absolutely. Could AA go bankrupt by year end? Also possible as is every other hypothetical in our industry.
Show up, fly your jet, go home and see your family. If you don't like it, stop wasting your breath and show your distaste with your feet, every "greener pasture" is hiring.
02-21-2023, 12:30 PM
#1419
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Position: Airbus CA
Posts: 910
Can’t agree with #2; you have a lot of fairly senior pilots in the big bases who have seen the small base strategy destroy their career progression; they “signed up” for an airline with less than 10 domiciles & saw regular advancement in SFB or IWA and that has drastically changed for the worse. Lot of these folks are leaving/considering it and yeah the grass is greener for a Southwest PHX pilot.
02-21-2023, 01:17 PM
#1420
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,940
Originally Posted by Greyhound89
This form has got it all, it really doesn't let you down. Here's the fact(s) of the matter from someone who has spent time in the "greener" pastures:
1. The grass truly isn't greener on the other side, it's just a different shade because the owner decided to turn on the sprinkler for a few years and the neighbor's dog didn't sh*t in it last night. EVERY airline has it's problems, when I was on the seniority list at one of the big four we had an equal amount of doomsday prophesying, saber rattling nonsense. Are the paychecks bigger? Absolutely, but does that matter when half of it is going to alimony and child support for the wife and kids you never got to see while commuting across the country living in your crashpad? There's a lot more to life than the money, those who haven't figured that out yet spend a little too much time with their left hand.
2. We all knew exactly what we were signing up for when we showed up for class. There aren't any secrets, those of us who have been here a while knew we were rolling the dice for a chance at being the next career destination. Those of you who are new, you have read the forums, you've asked the questions in the jumpseat and on Facebook. Yet there are so many of you that act shocked by the reality you face here. It's like touching the hot stove only to wonder why it burnt your hand.
3. It's Allegiant, we aren't Delta, we aren't United, we aren't Southwest and that will not change. Could management here grow this company into an airline that would have a name up there with those carriers? Of course, but according to all of you in the "know", we're shrinking to 500 pilots and 60 jets because Viva is coming to fly DSM-SFB. Get real. You really think the shareholders are going to go for that? You think the stock is rising again because we're actively shrinking? Q4 call, they made it clear we'd be growing at 4% this year, now unless I forgot what that means, it's still growth. Is it what we should be seeing? No, but it is a realistic target.
4. Viva is our nail in the coffin? I don't think so. It's clear that a majority of you on here haven't read any of the DOT filings as to what will actually happen with the Viva joint venture. Should we leave out the part where the company plans on adding 5000+ departures on our own metal to Mexico by 2026? Does that not fit your doom and gloom narrative? Do some of you seriously think that just because MOT gets a CUN flight, people aren't going to vacation in Disney or Vegas? If you'd bother to take your head out of the sand, you'd see that is as far fetched as Delta +10. But you're all right, I'm just the company propagandist who doesn't collect a paycheck to share the facts. Keep drinking that AR and Co. KoolAid.
5. We're going to get a contract, it isn't going to be Delta +10, it will get people in the door, we aren't getting a mass exodus like some of you foresaw, and we aren't shrinking to 500 pilots. Could I be wrong? Absolutely. Could AA go bankrupt by year end? Also possible as is every other hypothetical in our industry.
Show up, fly your jet, go home and see your family. If you don't like it, stop wasting your breath and show your distaste with your feet, every "greener pasture" is hiring.
1. The grass truly isn't greener on the other side, it's just a different shade because the owner decided to turn on the sprinkler for a few years and the neighbor's dog didn't sh*t in it last night. EVERY airline has it's problems, when I was on the seniority list at one of the big four we had an equal amount of doomsday prophesying, saber rattling nonsense. Are the paychecks bigger? Absolutely, but does that matter when half of it is going to alimony and child support for the wife and kids you never got to see while commuting across the country living in your crashpad? There's a lot more to life than the money, those who haven't figured that out yet spend a little too much time with their left hand.
2. We all knew exactly what we were signing up for when we showed up for class. There aren't any secrets, those of us who have been here a while knew we were rolling the dice for a chance at being the next career destination. Those of you who are new, you have read the forums, you've asked the questions in the jumpseat and on Facebook. Yet there are so many of you that act shocked by the reality you face here. It's like touching the hot stove only to wonder why it burnt your hand.
3. It's Allegiant, we aren't Delta, we aren't United, we aren't Southwest and that will not change. Could management here grow this company into an airline that would have a name up there with those carriers? Of course, but according to all of you in the "know", we're shrinking to 500 pilots and 60 jets because Viva is coming to fly DSM-SFB. Get real. You really think the shareholders are going to go for that? You think the stock is rising again because we're actively shrinking? Q4 call, they made it clear we'd be growing at 4% this year, now unless I forgot what that means, it's still growth. Is it what we should be seeing? No, but it is a realistic target.
4. Viva is our nail in the coffin? I don't think so. It's clear that a majority of you on here haven't read any of the DOT filings as to what will actually happen with the Viva joint venture. Should we leave out the part where the company plans on adding 5000+ departures on our own metal to Mexico by 2026? Does that not fit your doom and gloom narrative? Do some of you seriously think that just because MOT gets a CUN flight, people aren't going to vacation in Disney or Vegas? If you'd bother to take your head out of the sand, you'd see that is as far fetched as Delta +10. But you're all right, I'm just the company propagandist who doesn't collect a paycheck to share the facts. Keep drinking that AR and Co. KoolAid.
5. We're going to get a contract, it isn't going to be Delta +10, it will get people in the door, we aren't getting a mass exodus like some of you foresaw, and we aren't shrinking to 500 pilots. Could I be wrong? Absolutely. Could AA go bankrupt by year end? Also possible as is every other hypothetical in our industry.
Show up, fly your jet, go home and see your family. If you don't like it, stop wasting your breath and show your distaste with your feet, every "greener pasture" is hiring.
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