I think he means you just quarantine for the duration of your stay in country, this is currently done is SYD and BGI, probably other places but those I know of…you stay in your room till it’s van time…BGI you can go out if vax-ed, not sure about SYD…

“Quarantine refers to the practice of separating individuals who have had close contact with someone with COVID-19 to determine whether they develop symptoms or test positive for the disease. ….Quarantine for COVID-19 should last for 14 days after the exposure has ended.”

I comprehend your message just fine, it’s not my fault you made a different argument than you intended.

Also, your anger is misdirected. I’m not making the rules, I’m just telling you the reality of the situation.

Absolutely. There's definitely a sense that a lot of union positions at AA are minor legaue resume boosters for management. The end result is working for a flag carrier with a regional quality of life.

I’ve flown with 3 current or former chief pilots at AAL. All 3 were heavily involved with APA in the past. It’s a revolving door and you don’t want to make too many waves while working for APA or you might lose that future cushy mgt job. After 20+ years of bringing up the rear it’s time to switch to ALPA.

Agreed. At least we can then directly pattern bargain along with UAL and DL besides taking advantage of all that ALPA has to offer in additional benefits to their pilots. We have been working on this ILC since 1963 - I’m not sure it’s ever going to happen.

Could fences be a solution? Let's say 5 years from APA to management for certain APA positions.

Same stuff happens with (D)ALPA. The company recently created a new management position called Director-Pilot Contract Administration and Support, and filled it with a long time ALPA insider. 20+ years in ALPA, was a negotiator and knows our contract (good and bad) better than most. The naive side of me wants to say this could be good, but the realistic side says it likely won't be in our favor lol. Not saying it's not worth a switch to ALPA, just that it's the same crap, different pile in this respect. Best of luck gents!

I hear you. Same crap maybe but better results. Possibly the adult supervision from ALPA national keeps each airline’s ALPA in line. Something is structurally wrong with APA and they haven’t fixed it during the last 30+ years. The results speak for themselves. ALPA produces better contracts than APA. I’m amazed by the guys who would cost themselves hundreds of thousands or possibly millions in earnings over a career because they “hate ALPA.”

Well said. Plus they have “the voice” in DC, the resources, and better benefits for their pilots overall.

Union to management types of agreements are generally held to be illegal and they don't hold up. All you can do is "suggest", and in any event. anyone looking to switch sides won't have any compunction in "pressing to test" on that, because it's all about them and their good deal.

The management to union switch is even more heavily restricted. You can't prevent any member in good standing from running for a position.

I always wondered why you guys didn't go with ALPA after the merger.

Same reason all sorts of decisions are made around here: "Because this is the way we've always done it!"

Because an entity as big as ALPA is often interested in certain things that go beyond the individual needs of one specific airline. Now at ALPA, Delta and United are the big fish and they set a lot of the tone. So it’s safe to assume that if American were part of ALPA its needs would be prominent. But nothing changes the fact that as APA, the needs of your pilots and your airline are heard and catered to individually. Sure you may pay for certain services or what have you through ALPA National, but in the end your representatives represent you. No one else.

There are too many pilots here that got hired in their early 20s 35 years ago who have had 1 job in civilian aviation: AA. They lack perspective and outside the box thinking. They are great pilots and extremely valuable crew members but we'll never have an ILC while they are still here.

You have much to learn about APA and it's structure.

You nailed it. ☝️

I may know more than you realize 🙄

Whenever we sign a contract, in god knows how long, we’re still entitled to back pay starting on 1/1/2020 right? That hasn’t changed correct?

Not to turn this into a vaccination debate. If you don't feel comfortable getting it, don't. I didn't initially, but after about 6 months, I decided to do it.

What is your definition of a "long period of time"? Is there a medical standard you know of? Do you have a sweet spot timeframe where you all of a sudden become comfortable with a vaccine? Almost two billion people have been fully vaccinated with one of the various versions of the COVID vaccines over the past 8 months or so. Most serious side effects from vaccinations occur within weeks of getting them. Do some people get rare side effects? Of course. Every vaccine has them, including the ones we have been administering for decades.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/s...ting-the-shot-

Most people don't even read the side of boxes for various OTC medicines we take everyday. They can all cause side effects. Stomach ulcers, kidney failure, Down Syndrom, liver failure, high blood pressure, etc, but we take them without even thinking. Why is this vaccine so different aside from someone mandating a requirement to have it?

same thing happened at FedEx with almost the exact same title / first guy to fill that roll was also a former Chief Pilot and a former negotiator.

Yeah, you “newbies” know so much more and experienced so much more than us “old guys”. You are going to find out very soon just how “smart” you are. You’re seniority means nothing to APA or ALPA. The next merger you’re going to find out just how much you’re really worth. The “ASSociations” are worthless without principles and management knows it. There is your problem. Just keep talking trash….cause you’re just ****ed you’re not going to get 20 years.

The one thing that worries me as a NH and going to AA from PDT…

(for those who don’t know PDT has some of the worst QoL in the industry, about 10 14 day of lines a month that’s it and that’s the max days off without vacation and the average is 11 days off a month for anyone there less than 5 years) rambled a bit…

… is 50-60% of new hires are coming from flows from wholly owneds which have subpar regional QoL which regional QoL is already subpar… so most of us are getting the biggest QoL jump in our careers and will probably be extremely happy with whatever AA currently has (maybe that’s part of the flow strategy) I know I will be that’s why I tried so hard to get hired outside the flow among all the other reasons.

Another about 35-40% are coming from the military who I’m sure have been moved around the country/world, on deployments away from family for months at a time so I’m sure they will be happy with set schedules knowing when they’re off not too worried about being reassigned mid trip. I can’t really say too much from the military perspective but from the outside looking in the QoL at AA seems better than a typical military QoL. Plus most military hires this is also their first part 121 gig.

Lastly the 10% of us off the street. A lot of us are still coming from said subpar wholly owned’s. Some from other regionals.

It just seems that the majority of the future pilots will just be happy to be at AA and will not have some outside perspective similar to a DL or UA QoL. This worries me because I honestly won’t know exactly what it’s like over there. All I’ll know is my seniority is moving quicker than my contemporaries hired at the other 2 and that I have on average 4 more days off a month. I won’t be only flying 4 on 2 off 4 on 2 off crediting 75-80 hours tops a month. I’ll be making triple what I am at a regional while working a lot less in 2 years. So I don’t know how we fight to improve QoL to be on par with DL and UA (which I won’t even know what theirs is) when a majority of the future pilots are getting their biggest QoL and pay upgrades of their lives.

I don't even know what you just said. I'm not going to get 20 years of what? If I go to 65 I will have worked at AA for just under 30 years. If you add my previous airline experience it will make 38 years. If you add 135 40 years.

I have been through 3 section 6s if you count AA's current and seen now 3 different unions with interact with management with many different leadership changes along the way with their own methods and strategies. I may not be a grizzled old vet but I am in no way a "newbie." You guys see someone young-ish and decide they know nothing and have seen nothing.

I'm not talking trash I'm making an observation. I have conversations while I fly across the country for 5 hours. I have also watched what has gone on at APA since I've been here. From this I have formed an opinion. Since my opinion is not "how we've always done it" and I'm under 50 years old I guess it's incorrect.

Well, we are pilots, complaining is what we do. At the end of the day AA is a good job and I am happy here. Way happier than I was at the regional.

That's certainly not unique to AA. For most majors/legacy new hires, QOL is going to be a step up from their previous employer: 91, 121, 135, mil. Some have better aspects than others. None is the complete package, evidenced by the garbage spirit vs. UA vs FEDEX threads, etc. I believe there's a balance between being happy, proud, and content with where you are, but still striving to improve for the benefit of your entire pilot group. Kind of like all industries/work groups; the ones that sit back fat, dumb, and happy eventually get consumed.

Well neither are the "hired at 20" with one job and been here forever. I was hired early but I've experienced three airline "mergers". Not including two commuter, corporate and 135, etc. You make it sound like we're old and have seen nothing.

Well I suppose this is the problem with generalizations that we both made. Not everyone fits the mold.

It’s not that the old guys “know nothing.” Clearly your demographic has seen just about all the industry has to offer in the way of challenges and pitfalls. But the old guard at AA/USAIR/AWA have, in general, ended up with subpar working conditions for at least the last 20 years relative to our peers. Maybe an injection of new blood or a switch to ALPA will provide the needed change to get an industry standard contract at AAL.

He’s talking about guys that don’t uphold the contract. We’ve got guys bending over to use biz hero and posting it on every internal board (god I hope he’s trolling) when we need to do the opposite. The old guard here (not all) seem to lean forward more often than drive for a better contract.

Exactly.

filler

Nailed. It's like they're afraid of losing what they have for the last few years they're able to work here. This summer I heard "we should call and try to help" more then a few times. Or done variation.

Then there's the guys in my crash pad trying to relearn reserve rules as best as possible after being furloughed and calling scheduling back with the right information to argue.

Wait until Parker goes for a JetBlue merge job. It's a very real possibility. Wait until the kids at AA get their eyes watered when JBlu ALPA walks in with a proposal of a massive slot job starting right at the top of the list.

You could take any two carriers and accurately predict how a SLI integration would happen. It’s been established. APA/ALPA/IBT has nothing to do with it.

Nicolau would have disagreed with you. His creative "widebody pilots" solution was pretty damn unpredictable.

Not touching that one.

If you want unity and change you should probably stop trying to differentiate yourself before you’ve even stepped foot on property. We’ve got enough separate pilot groups here, it’s time for BTLers to change the course of things.

I wasn’t trying to differentiate myself, just emphasize that it appears the majority of the new hires over the next decade will be stepping into a much better situation and we may not know any better about what’s going on at other airlines. We won’t know it’s subpar compared to DL and UA. A lot of will be comparing it to where they came from which for the majority was a way worse situation.

My original post was in response to someone stating that a lot of people hired in their 20s over 30 years ago this was their first 121 job. I don’t know what you mean with accusations of differentiations?

You will see, the number of guys who are more concerned about where you came from than where you are is too damn high. You’ll fly with a navy guy who tells you you’re only a real pilot if you’ve landed on a ship at night. Or you’ll tell a captain you flew for Piedmont and they’ll b!tch about flow through programs (although it seems like you’ll make it very well known you weren’t a flow probably in the first five seconds of conversation lol).

Then you’ll hear about USAir, legacy AA, America west, TWA. There’s so many factions in this pilot group it’ll make your head spin.

People have the ability to look at our contract and then look at another carriers and see that ours sucks- regardless of what their career looked like before. I think you should have more faith in your future coworkers.

I disagree with your assessment. I have quite a few friends who came up through the regionals and they all aspired to the majors because they wanted to be able to make >350k/year and have 18+ days off with good benefits. They didn't say oh I got used to 10 days off a month for sh$t pay so I'm cool with 13 days off for decent pay. Everyone has their eye on the prize. The only demographic that tend to be a bit weak kneed (not all of them) are the guys/gals who are retiring in the next 1-5 years. For whatever reason a lot of them are big time forward leaners and would be satisfied with minor improvements and a few more dollars.