Not that I would be surprised to see it, but union reps speculating like* this is pathetic.

*if true

Which base’s rep is saying that?

Haha, my very first airline interview. All the rest have been basically chatting over coffee for a couple hours and a job offer before I left the building.

We need to merge with ALPA. Now.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1777115569177879

no thanks.

You don't need a new union, you need to get rid of the people running the one you have.

Serious question: what benefits does ALPA offer compared to APA? For example, how does their LOL compare, etc.?

Plus, who has the industry leading contract now, who represents them, and when is the last time APA had one?

The big picture needs to be addressed, not just old biases.

Blah blah blah…never heard this before.
Its the bylaws of APA that is it’s cause for failure. Chasing it’s own tail or stepping on its own $&:! comes to mind.

Without a National seniority list, seniority block voting and revising the RLA you’ll never have leverage against management.

Wait until the next merger and the mismanagement this company provides to realize jet blue/Alaska/who ever step in front of your seniority. Roghair/Vasin/Newguy are weak ALPA shills that stuck it to everyone in last merger and now they want to admonish you how much better Herndon is the answer. What I joke. Seen this play many times before.

APA blows. Always has.

It's not 1963.

The opening statement of the Railway Labor Act states: The parties shall make and maintain agreements on working conditions and rates of pay. ALPA has not seen the inside of an APA contract in 57 years. Maintaining an agreement, requires an intimate knowledge of the negotiating history. It means having intimate knowledge of the prior grievance history over the language in question. The words on paper in a negotiated contract mean one thing but the actual history and prior rulings of arbitrators define what that contract actually means. Neil has been in negotiations and no doubt will be neck deep in the union if the membership adopts ALPA. You will not see a major change in personnel if ALPA comes aboard, they have to have the institutional knowledge ready to help out the boys from Herndon, when they move in.

APA is somewhat dysfunctional, but I have an earned 20 year ALPA pin in my desk drawer and ALPA can be just as dysfunctional. Neil is a great guy but he has never been in ALPA and Mitch is a smart guy but has very little experience with ALPA. I don't know about the others in that drive.

If APA goes ALPA it will be years before any meaningful change would happen. It will take a long time for ALPA to get up to speed. Members will get the slick, and most expensive magazine subscription in the United States. They will get a very good Safety and Training support product. In my opinion members will loose some very good APA aeromedical unless they negotiate to keep what they already have.

ALPA, in the long run could work for APA but to those who think it will make a difference to the company, it won't. It could be argued that APA is much more of an unknown threat to the company. ALPA would never have allowed the 1998 sickout staged by APA president LeVoy. The company got a Federal injunction and LeVoy ignored it. A Federal judge ordered APA to pay $45 million and APA didn't pay up. The parties were in mediated negotiations with Don Carty's management and LeVoy told Carty to simply add $45 million to what ever they agreed to. AA was going to pay the fine.

The APA response to what precipitated the sickout, the Reno Airlines integration, was so badly done by Carty that the AA board removed him several years later. Management was stunned by APA's response, it was a total communications and intelligence failure by the part of management. APA saw a major scope violation and declared war on the company. This was all in addition to his mishandling of post 9/11 issues that further angered the employees, like management bonuses when employee's were losing their jobs and the company was posting loses.

ALPA would never defy a Federal Judge, the first rule at ALPA is not "schedule with safety" but "Protect the Mother-ship." ALPA's first order of business is to protect ALPA.

I was an MEC member at Eagle during the bankruptcy. I can say without any reservation that we received more help from the APA fighting the concession demands than we got from ALPA. To drive that point home, I will add that it was ALPA went full tilt selling us the concessions, carrying the company’s threats of being the next Comair as real, so do it or be unemployed. THAT was ALPA. Eagle (now Envoy) management fired 4 union leaders repeatedly just to get them out of their hair or a few months each time. One guy was fired seven times before flowing, another twice, I was fired three times, and another guy fired once. That’s how they intimidate the union into not fighting too hard. ALPA did nothing but get the jobs back. If that had been the APA and they wrongly fired your union leaders the planes wouldn’t move the next day, and the company knows it.

ALPA has the resources and they obviously have been winning for their respective memberships.

APA defense is based on “maybe one day when we just vote the “right people” in it may happen.”

Before we all know it our careers will be over.

Yes, ALPA has done well at United and Delta. They have done well because they have been there since the days of the DC-6. SWAPA has done well for Southwest, they know the territory as does the IPA, at UPS. Longevity and negotiating history matters in negotiations.

APA can’t even make the company provide our contractually guaranteed crew meals

You call that a meal?

The old meals were a gourmet experience compared to the Gruben

Nope, that’s why I’m saying APA can’t even hold the company to a simple task like a suitable meal

Right? Dare I even say the Gruben and cheese is better than the snack box because at least it’s a meal (even though it’s not quite suitable)….

APA has been in place since 1963.

As Oliver Twist said, “Please sir, I want some More Gruel.”

I can't believe this is even a debate in 2021. Doesn't APA pay for ALPA resources..also, just look at the contracts. Who is winning? We would be a stronger union together. Some of you guys are smoking crack from the 60s.

That's the good stuff 🤪

I would be more concerned about United unilaterally making personal medical decisions for their employees, and how ALPA will respond to that rather than worrying about what APA is doing.

I don’t believe there is anything prohibiting United to mandate them. Nobody has a right to a job at United and nobody is required to stay employed by them if they oppose the mandate.

That’s my viewpoint if I was a business owner / CEO or whatever.

Its rare that one airline institutes something and others don’t follow. I’m guessing we’ll know very soon if Parker is going to move forward with the same.

Will be interesting to see for sure. The United ALPA email said their pilots were 90% vaccinated, APA says we are 60%.

Everything is a conspiracy when you’ve been through this many mergers in one pilot group.

The majority of countries are going to require you to be vaccinated prior to entry as a foreign national. Do these guys truly believe that American Airlines, an international carrier, is going to create a separate special bid status for pilots who refuse the vaccine to keep them from crossing boarders? It’s laughable to imagine it for narrowbody pilots, and an absolute riot when applying that logic to widebody statuses.

I know it’s been decades since most of these guys have been to college - and they probably aren’t involved with the lives of their estranged children from their first marriage - but colleges require inoculations and records prior to admission. That includes MMR, HPV, Meningitis, influenza, Hep B….. soon covid. Get a grip on reality guys.

bingo. ^^^^^^^^^

The 737 is gonna the the hot thing for the 787 guys. ELP is the new Athens.

I think you are right. It’s sr to 320 CA in DFW after the last to bids.

It’s experimental still, lots of unknowns about long term issues. I do not support mandates on this…and out of the question for children, the risk reward calculation favor unvaxxed by a mile for kids. and I am vaxxed for what it’s worth.

Bingo. I hope the members sue the heck out of ALPA and UAL. A forced medical procedure is absolutely unacceptable.

Covd vax is not yet FDA approved. The others are and have been tested over a long period of time. It is not the same.

The FDA is expecting to issue full approval by labor day, so I'd imagine pretty much everywhere will start to require it then.

As for legality, it seems that there is pretty solid precedent for an employer to require vaccinations. Plus you can bet that United wouldn't announce something like this if their legal team weren't pretty confident it'd hold up in court.

Now I'm sure there'll be waivers and exceptions, but since I imagine most other countries will require incoming foreigners to be vaccinated that'll be more complicated.

I find it hard to imagine an airline giving non vaccinated crew members a special domestic bid option, but who knows.

You guys can tell yourselves whatever you want, it’s not going to change reality.

Good luck in court

https://apnews.com/article/health-co...fa371675f8c617

Supreme Court precedent in Jacobson V. Massachusetts. Roll up those sleeves boys

Sanicom is correct. Additionally, contractual force majeure specifically considers, epidemics, so a contractual challenge is likely to fail.

Force majeure is a common clause in contracts which essentially frees both parties from liability or obligation when an extraordinary event or circumstance beyond the control of the parties, such as a war, strike, riot, crime, epidemic or sudden legal changes prevents one or both parties from fulfilling their obligations under the contract.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_majeure

https://www.akerman.com/en/perspecti...contracts.html

Personally, I don’t care if you want/get the vaccine or not. I’m all about freedom of choice. I can understand not getting the vaccine. I can also understand not giving a F if you get the vaccine and spread it to those that chose not to get it. Freedom, responsibilities, ethics and ramifications are all debatable here. On a PTT CL made it clear the company has no doubts then can require it.

So AA will let you go to a foreign country and quarantine in a hotel on their dime rather than just take the far cheaper option and mandate the vaccine? Do we work for the same company?


Again, you can delude yourself into thinking whatever you want if it helps you sleep at night for the next couple weeks. Reality looms