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.........
May want to poll the older Eagle guys, see what we/they think about ALPA.
What a continuous rolling circus. |
The letters on the building don't matter as much as the letters in the constitution/by laws and the letters on each nameplate on each door in the headquarters. An effort should be made to scrub every other unions bylaws for best practices, APAs for things that aren't working, and a sincere effort to update how APA is governed and operates. Any office does not support that effort should have the nametag on the door changed. Only then will APA see meaningful changes in its contract. External change happens after internal change.
Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk |
Recall
Will aa recall if relief bill passes?
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Originally Posted by ERAUAV8TR
(Post 3167801)
Will aa recall if relief bill passes?
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Originally Posted by FlyyGuyy
(Post 3167849)
Lol. Hope not. Or I'm out 40k for my training contract lmao.
Couldn’t you just go on a leave of absence of some sort? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro |
Originally Posted by FlyyGuyy
(Post 3167849)
Lol. Hope not. Or I'm out 40k for my training contract lmao.
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Originally Posted by Gone Flying
(Post 3167858)
can’t you defer recall?
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Can’t wait to see how “generous” APA pilots.
I recently learned that Philly’s APA Chair started a “go fund me” page, where Philly pilots can contribute money which will then be used to purchase holiday gift cards for Philly’s furloughed pilots.
Personally, I think this little experiment is going to be extremely telling in regard to the attitude and mindset of APA’s pilot group as it relates to empathy, respect, and compassion for their brethren pilots. “Unity” is only a thing when it benefits those who are planning to retire within a couple of years. Nevertheless, I hope those furloughed Philly pilots enjoy that Bass Pro Shops gift card, ........ worth $1.67. |
Originally Posted by Slick111
(Post 3168168)
I recently learned that Philly’s APA Chair started a “go fund me” page, where Philly pilots can contribute money which will then be used to purchase holiday gift cards for Philly’s furloughed pilots.
Personally, I think this little experiment is going to be extremely telling in regard to the attitude and mindset of APA’s pilot group as it relates to empathy, respect, and compassion for their brethren pilots. “Unity” is only a thing when it benefits those who are planning to retire within a couple of years. Nevertheless, I hope those furloughed Philly pilots enjoy that Bass Pro Shops gift card, ........ worth $1.67. Also I noticed some furloughed pilots donating... That speaks loudly. |
.......
Originally Posted by coodrough568
(Post 3167423)
I don’t think too highly of ALPA, but some of my co workers and friends do. It seems the valuation of any union is hit or miss depending on who you ask. I have older AA/UsAir friends who would never want to go back to ALPA, they say APA is/was better. Has APA changed in 2020?
I would love to see AA join ALPA. I’m stuck at Envoy. But it seems to make sense to me that as a WO regional, we should be under the same Union as the mother company. FINALLY!!!! Someone who gets it. Believe me brother, we tried it back in the day---APA would have none of it, and ALPA just wanted big American. They really could have cared less about Eagle or any other regional. Of course, AMR loved it that way because they could still play their standard "shell game", you know, all the Eagle carriers against each other, and Eagle and American against each other. I 100% agree with you. EVERY PILOT that flies ANY AIRPLANE that benefits ANY MAJOR AIRLINE should ALL be on the same seniority list, with representation from the SAME UNION. By the fact that you are flying at Envoy, you are a de-facto American Airlines pilot. I would like to live long enough to see that happen. No more shell game/whipsawing, no more second class status for pilots who fly smaller aircraft. In reality, do I think it will happen? No |
Originally Posted by Boxhound
(Post 3168239)
FINALLY!!!! Someone who gets it. Believe me brother, we tried it back in the day---APA would have none of it, and ALPA just wanted big American. They really could have cared less about Eagle or any other regional. Of course, AMR loved it that way because they could still play their standard "shell game", you know, all the Eagle carriers against each other, and Eagle and American against each other. I 100% agree with you. EVERY PILOT that flies ANY AIRPLANE that benefits ANY MAJOR AIRLINE should ALL be on the same seniority list, with representation from the SAME UNION. By the fact that you are flying at Envoy, you are a de-facto American Airlines pilot. I would like to live long enough to see that happen. No more shell game/whipsawing, no more second class status for pilots who fly smaller aircraft.
In reality, do I think it will happen? No You think guys at Delta and FedEx making $400K+ want to take a pay cut so regional pilots can make decent money? No. And that's what it would take. Pilots really are their own worst enemy. |
Originally Posted by APCbot
(Post 3168254)
It won't ever happen because the pilots at the top don't want it.
You think guys at Delta and FedEx making $400K+ want to take a pay cut so regional pilots can make decent money? No. And that's what it would take. Pilots really are their own worst enemy. You got that right brother!! |
Originally Posted by APCbot
(Post 3168254)
It won't ever happen because the pilots at the top don't want it.
You think guys at Delta and FedEx making $400K+ want to take a pay cut so regional pilots can make decent money? No. And that's what it would take. Pilots really are their own worst enemy. That’s a false choice. No one has to take a pay cut to have brand scope. You just have to have or make leverage. Easier said than done, sure. But not beyond the laws of physics. |
...
Pilots truly are their own worst enemy.
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Our union isn't even interested in fighting for those on the bottom of our current seniority list. Put down the pipe for now gentlemen.
Now for some eye candy https://images.cdn.circlesix.co/imag...4e7ed12003.png |
For those who would advocate a change to ALPA, one thing to consider is that ALPA has a long negotiating history with United and Delta, but not with American. The Railway Labor Act says the parties shall make and maintain agreements. APA broke away from ALPA in 1963, 57 years ago. There is no negotiating history to fall back on for an ALPA negotiator, ALPA has no idea about the grievance history of APA and ALPA didn't write any of the current contract language.
If this pilot group elects ALPA as it's bargaining agent you will see no changes to the office staff and the way things are done. It will be the same people because ALPA has no idea what goes on in Dallas. It would take several years to any any of the "boys from Herndon" up to speed on how AA operates, manages the contract and who to deal with. My estimate would be at least 5 years to see any meaningful change. If you want to slow negotiations down to a crawl, go ALPA. They will walk in clueless with no history or background to rely on. |
Originally Posted by Allegheny
(Post 3169588)
For those who would advocate a change to ALPA, one thing to consider is that ALPA has a long negotiating history with United and Delta, but not with American. The Railway Labor Act says the parties shall make and maintain agreements. APA broke away from ALPA in 1963, 57 years ago. There is no negotiating history to fall back on for an ALPA negotiator, ALPA has no idea about the grievance history of APA and ALPA didn't write any of the current contract language.
If this pilot group elects ALPA as it's bargaining agent you will see no changes to the office staff and the way things are done. It will be the same people because ALPA has no idea what goes on in Dallas. It would take several years to any any of the "boys from Herndon" up to speed on how AA operates, manages the contract and who to deal with. My estimate would be at least 5 years to see any meaningful change. If you want to slow negotiations down to a crawl, go ALPA. They will walk in clueless with no history or background to rely on. Your first argument is that ALPA will have no tribal knowledge of prior agreements. Your second argument is there will be no change because the AA union leadership and staff will remain the same. Unless J from men in black is going to drop in for a memory wipe, I think those are mutually exclusive. |
Originally Posted by Boxhound
(Post 3168239)
FINALLY!!!! Someone who gets it. Believe me brother, we tried it back in the day---APA would have none of it, and ALPA just wanted big American. They really could have cared less about Eagle or any other regional. Of course, AMR loved it that way because they could still play their standard "shell game", you know, all the Eagle carriers against each other, and Eagle and American against each other. I 100% agree with you. EVERY PILOT that flies ANY AIRPLANE that benefits ANY MAJOR AIRLINE should ALL be on the same seniority list, with representation from the SAME UNION. By the fact that you are flying at Envoy, you are a de-facto American Airlines pilot. I would like to live long enough to see that happen. No more shell game/whipsawing, no more second class status for pilots who fly smaller aircraft.
In reality, do I think it will happen? No |
Originally Posted by THKooj
(Post 3169696)
Exactly. Thank you for recognizing reality. You are hired at Envoy as an American Airlines pilot. Why do you think Envoy goes to so much trouble vetting candidates and pipeline applicants? Because of this.
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Originally Posted by Gooselives
(Post 3169850)
haha lots slipped through the cracks when envoy was doing 80 man classes in a ballroom. Flow is pretty worthless....do 8-12 years at eagle just to get furloughed...and no one at envoy flowed yet. Put in those apps...ual and jet blue will hire in 2021
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Originally Posted by ERAUAV8TR
(Post 3169852)
what vetting did they do? Can you read a jepp chart?
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Originally Posted by THKooj
(Post 3169920)
With the flow thru in place, the recruiting team was essentially having to vet candidates for American as they were hired to AA standards. Maybe not in hours or experience but in background. As an example, the "perfect" candidate graduated high school and immediately enrolled in a partner university that is part of the pipeline program. Said candidate sails through and gets high marks in flight training while obtaining the equivalent degree. Candidate graduates around the age of 22 on average and then instructs at said university until the high 1400 hour mark and is put through ATP/CTP by Envoy and goes online at the Voy after completion essentially beginning a life long career at American. The perfect candidates also found some time to volunteer at a charity or other organization to give back to the community. The ideal Envoy would be 100% pipeline graduates at some future date with no leftover lifers from years ago who got lucky after flying a Baron around West Texas for Virgil's Oil Bidness. When Envoy finally purges the last of the lifers, that's the how the ideal overall Envoy demographic looks.
stop pedaling your garbage. Besides this is totally irrelevant and a thread drift away on an American thread. |
Originally Posted by THKooj
(Post 3169920)
With the flow thru in place, the recruiting team was essentially having to vet candidates for American as they were hired to AA standards. Maybe not in hours or experience but in background. As an example, the "perfect" candidate graduated high school and immediately enrolled in a partner university that is part of the pipeline program. Said candidate sails through and gets high marks in flight training while obtaining the equivalent degree. Candidate graduates around the age of 22 on average and then instructs at said university until the high 1400 hour mark and is put through ATP/CTP by Envoy and goes online at the Voy after completion essentially beginning a life long career at American. The perfect candidates also found some time to volunteer at a charity or other organization to give back to the community. The ideal Envoy would be 100% pipeline graduates at some future date with no leftover lifers from years ago who got lucky after flying a Baron around West Texas for Virgil's Oil Bidness. When Envoy finally purges the last of the lifers, that's the how the ideal overall Envoy demographic looks.
|
Originally Posted by THKooj
(Post 3169920)
With the flow thru in place, the recruiting team was essentially having to vet candidates for American as they were hired to AA standards. Maybe not in hours or experience but in background. As an example, the "perfect" candidate graduated high school and immediately enrolled in a partner university that is part of the pipeline program. Said candidate sails through and gets high marks in flight training while obtaining the equivalent degree. Candidate graduates around the age of 22 on average and then instructs at said university until the high 1400 hour mark and is put through ATP/CTP by Envoy and goes online at the Voy after completion essentially beginning a life long career at American. The perfect candidates also found some time to volunteer at a charity or other organization to give back to the community. The ideal Envoy would be 100% pipeline graduates at some future date with no leftover lifers from years ago who got lucky after flying a Baron around West Texas for Virgil's Oil Bidness. When Envoy finally purges the last of the lifers, that's the how the ideal overall Envoy demographic looks.
I flew at a WO for two or so years. One captain left the engines running and went to the hotel. He them FaceTimed the ground crew in some podunk outstation from his hotel room (probably while eating a cheeseburger) and told them how to shut the jet down. Classic! Also https://scontent-lga3-2.xx.fbcdn.net...64&oe=5FFB6667 |
Originally Posted by Allegheny
(Post 3169588)
For those who would advocate a change to ALPA, one thing to consider is that ALPA has a long negotiating history with United and Delta, but not with American. The Railway Labor Act says the parties shall make and maintain agreements. APA broke away from ALPA in 1963, 57 years ago. There is no negotiating history to fall back on for an ALPA negotiator, ALPA has no idea about the grievance history of APA and ALPA didn't write any of the current contract language.
If this pilot group elects ALPA as it's bargaining agent you will see no changes to the office staff and the way things are done. It will be the same people because ALPA has no idea what goes on in Dallas. It would take several years to any any of the "boys from Herndon" up to speed on how AA operates, manages the contract and who to deal with. My estimate would be at least 5 years to see any meaningful change. If you want to slow negotiations down to a crawl, go ALPA. They will walk in clueless with no history or background to rely on. Doesn’t the APA contract with ALPA E&FA during their contract negotiations? That would give ALPA staff and attorneys a lot institutional knowledge. In any case, a change of this magnitude, merging with ALPA, probably shouldn’t hinge on this concern. Because it probably means there are larger structural issues in play. |
Originally Posted by THKooj
(Post 3169920)
With the flow thru in place, the recruiting team was essentially having to vet candidates for American as they were hired to AA standards. Maybe not in hours or experience but in background. As an example, the "perfect" candidate graduated high school and immediately enrolled in a partner university that is part of the pipeline program. Said candidate sails through and gets high marks in flight training while obtaining the equivalent degree. Candidate graduates around the age of 22 on average and then instructs at said university until the high 1400 hour mark and is put through ATP/CTP by Envoy and goes online at the Voy after completion essentially beginning a life long career at American. The perfect candidates also found some time to volunteer at a charity or other organization to give back to the community. The ideal Envoy would be 100% pipeline graduates at some future date with no leftover lifers from years ago who got lucky after flying a Baron around West Texas for Virgil's Oil Bidness. When Envoy finally purges the last of the lifers, that's the how the ideal overall Envoy demographic looks.
|
Originally Posted by TransWorld
(Post 3170078)
Am curious. About how many pre-Envoy, Eagle lifers are still active?
---Filler--- |
Originally Posted by FXLAX
(Post 3169997)
Doesn’t the APA contract with ALPA E&FA during their contract negotiations? That would give ALPA staff and attorneys a lot institutional knowledge.
In any case, a change of this magnitude, merging with ALPA, probably shouldn’t hinge on this concern. Because it probably means there are larger structural issues in play. You are missing the fact that if it wasn't invented here it is dumb. Much ancestor worship at this place. |
Originally Posted by THKooj
(Post 3170114)
Too many.
---Filler--- |
Originally Posted by Thedude
(Post 3170310)
You are missing the fact that if it wasn't invented here it is dumb.
Much ancestor worship at this place. What will happen is you'll start a drive, and as soon as the greybeards see that it's getting momentum and might go someplace, they'll start to say soothing things and pretend to go along. As soon as the opportunity permits, and it looks like the peasants are putting away their pitchforks, they'll engineer some way to back out of it. If you're serious, you need to collect the cards and press to test until the signatures are on the line that is dotted. Otherwise nothing at all will change. |
Originally Posted by TransWorld
(Post 3170078)
Am curious. About how many pre-Envoy, Eagle lifers are still active?
|
..........
Originally Posted by sanicom3205
(Post 3169962)
Ignoring the fact that THecoochie is trolling everyone....
I flew at a WO for two or so years. One captain left the engines running and went to the hotel. He them FaceTimed the ground crew in some podunk outstation from his hotel room (probably while eating a cheeseburger) and told them how to shut the jet down. Classic! Also https://scontent-lga3-2.xx.fbcdn.net...64&oe=5FFB6667 What happened here to cause this ? What was the outcome for the pilots? |
Originally Posted by Boxhound
(Post 3170538)
What happened here to cause this ? What was the outcome for the pilots?
https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/e...ation-331.html That initial post was last Thursday. Probably way to early for anything to have happened to the pilots. |
Originally Posted by Boxhound
(Post 3170538)
What happened here to cause this ? What was the outcome for the pilots?
|
Originally Posted by dera
(Post 3170875)
Why would anything happen to the pilots?
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Originally Posted by ag386
(Post 3171041)
Dude, its Envoy. Why do you think?
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Originally Posted by dera
(Post 3171064)
Who have they fired for a mistake like this, unless it involved holy sh*t-level stupidity?
|
Originally Posted by havick206
(Post 3171126)
short memory? ORD crew that dialed in the wrong heading on departure.
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